Motorcycle Parking Fees Recommended without Notice or Public Consultation

Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

But why just get by? Paying $60 bucks to plate your vehicle a year isn't much. People were already used to it. Add a property tax increase and give the people a better city. It is the short term BS that is why we aren't progressing. Our transit system is the biggest example. Although it is a topic for another debate a Golden Horseshoe wide high speed rail system would do more for Toronto's congestion than anything. If Toronto got their end of things on board it would sure help convince the province to do the same. Maybe I'm still dreaming. Time for that morning coffee.

Are you suggesting that the civic government should be making a profit? "Just getting by" means meeting your ongoing budgetary requirements, with the ability to build a small emergency surplus. Determining what those needs are, is the job of government, and meeting them requires a consistent and reliable income stream. That isn't served by a bunch of little fees, that each have their own overhead.

We do need a unified transportation strategy, in the Golden Horseshoe. My own opinion is that we should have put extended light rail routes along all of the major highways in the 'no mans' land' between the lane directions, rather than just expanding the number of lanes to fill that area. That would have created a spine, from which all regional local transit could be 'hung.' Now it's pretty much too late.
 
Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

I'm all for some sort of a "plate fee", that's reasonable and optional. If you park on Toronto paid parking streets, when you renew your licence, you can pay some fee, say $50, for a years worth of parking in the same spots we park now.

I really don't see how it will work as a "money grab" (as really that's all this is), any other way. The "cell phone" solution won't work as people can claim they don't own one. Charging the same for bikes to park is unfair when we can fit 3-4 into the same spot as a car. But the biggest problem is the "taking" of parking tags off bikes. First off, it will happen and it would worry me more that some scum that would do that, would go near my bike as obviously they wouldn't be careful about it. Then I get ticketed, but kept the reciept. So I go to court, waste a tonne of my time, city workers time, etc. just to get off the ticket and any extra income generated is wiped out.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

letter sent to councillor Chin Lee in my ward.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Are you suggesting that the civic government should be making a profit?

Not at all. I'm saying they should stop putting off city infrustructure work that needs to get done until it collapses and cost double to emergency fix.

I agree 100% about the light rail along highways.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Not at all. I'm saying they should stop putting off city infrustructure work that needs to get done until it collapses and cost double to emergency fix.

I agree 100% about the light rail along highways.

Maintaining and improving existing infrastructure is a 'necessity.' Large improvements, like big increases in public transit capabilities, are typically handled with loans, so that the costs can be amortized over 10 or even 20 years.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

G'day,

I'm new to the forum, ride a BMW F800GS, live and work downtown, ride my bike 8-9 months a year and don't own a car. Great to meet you all.

I wrote to Mike Del Grande as soon as I heard about this, Tuesday evening. This is my email:

Hi Mike,

As Editor-in-Chief of EatSleepRIDE.com, an online motorcycling news nexus and community catering to, and advocating for, motorcyclists of all type, I'd like to comment on your proposal to reintroduce parking fees for riders.

You were quoted in Tuesday's Sun (http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/29/motorcycle-free-parking-faces-to-ban) regarding motorbikes and scooters as saying, “They burn gas just like everybody else. You take a parking spot, you pay what you pay for cars.”

Indeed both do burn fuel, albeit a lot less for scooters and motorbikes, and as for taking a parking spot, we can fit 5-7 bikes in the space of one car spot. Our bikes also take up much less space while driving on the road, and damage that road far less than a car or truck does. And the inherent nimbleness of a bike makes travel faster and less frustrating than going by car. As well, a new generation of long-range, highway-capable electric motorcycles are poised to hit the market next year, and they neither burn gas nor make a sound. We expect them to become a common sight on our streets.

There's also the problem of placing the parking coupons. What's to stop someone stealing one off a bike? What happens when it rains, the coupon paper dissolves and we have no way to prove we paid for parking if we get ticketed?

It just seems counterproductive that a city struggling with ever-growing gridlock would want to add a disincentive to those of us who ride two-wheeled motorized transport. When you think about it, motorcycles are a key part of the gridlock solution, and one that the city and province would be wise to support and encourage, as opposed to cars, as transport. Cities all over the world are realizing this and acting accordingly.

And let's face it: The TTC's a disaster -- an overloaded, unpleasant and unreliable mode of transit, with no fixes in sight. Condos keep going up all over the core. The roads aren't being expanded, because there's nowhere to expand them. What else is there available to reduce road clutter other than encouraging people to walk or ride -- whether bicycles, motorbikes or scooters?

There's much more to the story of how motorcycles can help this city, and I invite you to read our recently completed Manifesto here: http://eatsleepride.com/c/4418/We+the+Motorcycles+Are+Here+to+Save+Toronto.

Hoping you'll consider these points and change your mind on parking fees for bikes.

All the best,

Paul


And this was his reply:Thank you for your point of view.
Why is in Toronto everything is expected for free and everywhere else
it is not?

Twitching a bit as I struggled to keep my head, I responded with:

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your rapid reply.

To your point of everything in Toronto being expected for free, I'm
afraid I'm not familiar with that statistic.

But in the case of motorcyclists wanting free parking, from our point
of view it's because:

- We already pay disproportionately higher road taxes than cars,
considering the negligible adverse impact we have on the roads
- We already pay higher insurance rates than cars, and have to buy a
full year's worth of insurance even though we can't possibly ride a
full year, due to snow and salt on the roads
- We take up around 1/5 the space of a small car when parked, so
there's a basic real estate factor at work
- There are no practical ways to secure a parking coupon to a bike --
they tend to get stolen and destroyed by rain
- The previous admin understood that if you give people a little
incentive not to drive a car, they'll take you up on it. I was one of
those people, and now see new cost and hassle being added to an
already (illogically) expensive mode of transport

Sir, motorcycle ownership should be actively encouraged in Toronto by
people such as yourself and the mayor. It offers the only realistic,
immediate and inexpensive relief to ever-worsening gridlock -- for at
least 8 months of the year. Compared to the vast expense of expanding
public transit and expanding the road network, the loss of parking
income from bikes is a pittance.

If you have fact-based counter-arguments to these points, I would be
delighted to engage you on them.

All the best,

Paul

And his reply to that:

Then a review would be in order.

So, I guess Mike and I kept it civilized. And I am hoping the man and his City Hall associates may be willing to listen to reason.

The lesson would seem to be: If you're writing or speaking to politicians on this matter, keep it polite, yes, attack their ideas with reason and facts, but do not call them names, or accuse them of things, or attack their characters.

As soon as you loose your cool, they'll just brand you (and likely other riders) a dangerous biker kook and you'll never have a chance at their ear again. It's in our interest to demonstrate that we are normal citizens who happen to ride motorcycles, and not hellraisers or whiners who want more freebies from the gov.

This is a biggy, and if we fight the good fight with facts, logic and a sense of humour, we'll maybe just win it.

And it's worth remembering that when politicians hear from one voter, they multiply the opinion expressed by the voter by 100 or 1,000. Writing and calling them most definitely does make a diff.

So, to war.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Paul, should you reply to his last message I would also add that the solutions to the issue of lost parking vouchers would likely cost more than the revenue obtained through them, making it a pointless and counter-productive enterprise.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

However, there is no reason to rid of motorcycle parking. It costs the city less to let us do it than it would to design and implement this cell phone b/s. Nevermind my bro and dad who do not have smart phones, and i can list a ton others that ride and dont have smart phones. like come on...technology is not always the answer.

This.

I mean this kind of proposal sounds good on paper: eliminate free parking for motorcycles and scooters. What people don't realize is trying to enforce that and keep things "fair", more or less, is probably going to end up costing the city money.

This is one of those situations where not changing something would be the cheapest solution. And I think that's what we need to focus our argument on.

While saying motorcycles are good for the environment and for traffic is all well and good, the fact is we can't back any of that up and arguments like that only make us look kind of stupid.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Paul, should you reply to his last message I would also add that the solutions to the issue of lost parking vouchers would likely cost more than the revenue obtained through them, making it a pointless and counter-productive enterprise.

Roger that, Rob.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Roger that, Rob.

I would also add that more revenue could be obtained by instructing bylaw officers to tag scooters and motorcycles who illegally park on the boulevard/sidewalk, but that's a pet peeve of mine ;)
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

a
When Rob Ford cuts the cities already available income streams (the vehicle plate tax, Not raising taxes etc) in favour of a nickel and dime approach you don't think that this has anything to do with it? The city is going bankrupt and Ford cuts incoming funding. Are you trying to ignore the obvious connection here? His marching orders were to find every penny in hopes of even coming close to making up revenue streams he cut. Everyone who looked at the numbers knew it wasn't possible but his bumper sticker message was catchy and people bought in. He is going after all the low hanging fruit. The small groups with little voice. The vulnerable. After all its all about being popular not making the city better for the future right?

If you had an ever increasing debt would you voluntarily take an income cut then hope you can collect spare change out of couches to cover your debt? Of course not. that is just silly.

Toronto needed to keep its plate tax. Toronto needed to raise property taxes. On top of that Toronto needed to control the nickel and dime stuff at city hall. Of course that isn't popular and won't get you the election win. Its all about the win right? Who cares what Toronto looks like after his term.
On your example, if the income i was getting was coming out of someone that had to pay because of my poor money management skills, then yes I would cut it.

Why Torontonians had to pay another imposed fake tax just because other MAyors couldn't manage the city properly amazes me, logic tells me that before adding another tx they should look for spending cuts, however that is not a popular approach, because somehow we are ok with been taxed to death but not ok when a few libraries having to close, or with the police department having to fire a few high Administrative positions.

If the CEO of my company had to decrease our salaries because he couldn't manage his expenses, he would be fired by the board - However, Mayors get away with increasing taxes (representing a salary decrease for us on the context of this example). I don't get it.

Anyways, this thread is about something more important that our disagreements on policy and common sense. I am not getting into this anymore
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Anyways, this thread is about something more important that our disagreements on policy and common sense. I am not getting into this anymore

You're right. Agree to Disagree once more.

Time will be the only telling factor if the city is better off or not. We all are passionate about our city even if we have different ideas for how it should be run. cheers
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

You're right. Agree to Disagree once more.

Time will be the only telling factor if the city is better off or not. We all are passionate about our city even if we have different ideas for how it should be run. cheers
Agreed. Time would tell and if I am wrong I will admit it, like the article that came out today about Ford not releasing public events to the Star, that was stupid on his part.
 
Re: City council voting on getting rid of free parking for motorcycles today

Agreed. Time would tell and if I am wrong I will admit it, like the article that came out today about Ford not releasing public events to the Star, that was stupid on his part.

Yes I agree. He should have taken the legal avenues provided to him if the article was indeed false and libel. Just with any Mayor I hate the fact that a small group of supporters can just shelve any motion that might make him accountable (Miller did it also and I hated that) such as Adam Vaughns motion for equal press access.

Back on topic.

I wonder if its just a coincidence that the removal of free motorcycle parking is being debated over winter when the community is less active and the window to protest spaced out parking isn't an option.

I also only hope that they cut the gravy of suburban sidewalk snow removal. After all fair is fair right? Downtown has to shovel their own sidewalks.
 
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Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

The point is unless you actually do try to do something, things will never change.

To quote edmond burke, [h=4]"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." [/h]I'm not suggesting that this is evil per se, but what happens when the next thing they want to do is ban after market pipes? Or Bikes over 100hp? Or make everyone wear high-viz clothing? Will you still feel so apathetic? FYI, these are all things that have happened in france and been successfully prevented by a cohesive and politically active motorcycle community. I think we need the same.

Another harebrained, illogical scheme by the city.
I was gonna rant on a little more but, Bah....what's the point??
 
Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

Everyone

The Council website now shows that this issue has been dealt with, and the status is "amended". I have an e-mail in to the Clerk's office for clarification, and to get the approved recommendations, as amended. I'll post it as soon as I hear back.

I assume this means that they achieved the 2/3 votes to actually deal with the item today, and not let the motion go back to Committee where we could speak to it, as we had hoped. Hopefully the amendment gives us a little more time to work with staff and Council on this.

I'll let you know as soon as I do!
 
Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

Everyone

The Council website now shows that this issue has been dealt with, and the status is "amended". I have an e-mail in to the Clerk's office for clarification, and to get the approved recommendations, as amended. I'll post it as soon as I hear back.

I assume this means that they achieved the 2/3 votes to actually deal with the item today, and not let the motion go back to Committee where we could speak to it, as we had hoped. Hopefully the amendment gives us a little more time to work with staff and Council on this.

I'll let you know as soon as I do!

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2011.MM14.19
 
Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/decisio...on=doPrepare&meetingId=4422#Meeting-2011.CC14

Click on the MM14.19 to get the item report, or go directly to the following link.

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2011.MM14.19

At the bottom you will see who has written to Council. You can write at either "Submit Comments" at the top of the item or at clerk@toronto.ca They now show that 9 of us have sent e-mails. Great work, let's keep the pressure on and send more e-mails.

Great info, Face.

I checked-out the link: the City Clerk's "Tracking Status" does not list me in the "Communications" list.

I sent the Clerk an email with my concerns yesterday (in early afternoon). It was an email that I had originally sent to my Councillor (Stintz) early yesterday AM.

Looks like the Clerk did not receive my email or log it in the system. That gives the appearance that the Clerk is receiving less "Communications" from citizens than actual. That's not good.

Will re-send my email to the Clerk now.
 
Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

So what does this mean?

1 - Motion to Amend Item moved by Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker (Carried)
That Recommendation 1 be amended by deleting the words "to harmonize them with parking for other motorized vehicles" so that it now reads:

1. City Council direct the General Manager, Transportation Services to report to the February, 2012 meeting of City Council, through the Public Works and Infrastructure Committee on options for the implementation and enforcement of parking charges and fees regarding motorcycles and motor scooters.
 
Re: We might lose free parking in Toronto

So what does this mean?

1 - Motion to Amend Item moved by Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker (Carried)
That Recommendation 1 be amended by deleting the words "to harmonize them with parking for other motorized vehicles" so that it now reads:

1. City Council direct the General Manager, Transportation Services to report to the February, 2012 meeting of City Council, through the Public Works and Infrastructure Committee on options for the implementation and enforcement of parking charges and fees regarding motorcycles and motor scooters.

It means that the motion originally read:

"City Council direct the General Manager, Transportation Services to report to the February, 2012 meeting of City Council, through the Public Works and Infrastructure Committee on options for the implementation and enforcement of parking charges and fees regarding motorcycles and motor scooters to harmonize them with parking for other motorized vehicles."

They just removed that last bit, otherwise people could argue that using a different method of recording payment failed to "harmonize" them. Ploitics.

This is the important part, that pretty much says it's a done deal:

"City Council direct the General Manager, Transportation Services to report to the February, 2012 meeting of City Council, through the Public Works and Infrastructure Committee on options for the implementation and enforcement of parking charges and fees regarding motorcycles and motor scooters."
 
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