Law Enforcement - The Good, The Bad, The Ugly.....

Who was in the wrong?

  • Cop

    Votes: 23 20.7%

  • Dude who got shot

    Votes: 33 29.7%

  • I like turtles

    Votes: 55 49.5%
  • Total voters
    111
backmarkerducati said:
Lots of finger pointing on bail (the problem is not just bail BTW) and repeat offenders, I really think the items below need to be fixed before just adding more laws...
  • Current jails in Ontario are full/over capacity so apparently judges are being lenient on bail as there is no place to put them.
  • Same with repeat offenders, no place to put them.
  • Of course some are also being lenient just on their view points.
  • The number of offenders walking on charter/speedy trial is way up as there is not enough capacity in the Ontario court system.
  • Police are frustrated with catch and release due to the above but also seem to drop the ball procedure wise far to often IMO, criminals released (not convicted) because they messed up.
Now other provinces have similar issues BUT Ontario has the power to fix the above HERE and no new laws are needed, just enforce the ones on the books now! Then tweak. There was tough talk on holding judges to task by the current Ontario government a while back, what happened to that, why are judges still being too lenient, I thought Dougie was fixing this?

Where is the needed increase in court capacity to stop charter walks? How does some new law fix that?

So some new law gets passed at whatever level how does that change any of the above, specially capacity issues, magic? FIFO jails, add one, release one? We see this with driving bans, why are they violating bail or bans and getting bail again? So which hardened criminal do we release to get them a bed?

Do we need better police training or at least some repercussions for screwing up evidence?

A family member is a criminal defence attorney (specializing in gun crimes. gangs, murders) and the stories of the utter incompetence of the courts, crown and police are shocking, her success rate is in the 80% range. Bail is all but a given. Both due mostly to the above points, new laws don;t fix that.

Then there is the greater discussion about the judicial system (justice is a bad description these days) rehabilitates to prevent recidivism.
Click to expand...
Compared to the American statistics, our rates of recidivism are remarkably low. IIRC something like 1/3 of theirs.

California got "tough on crime", not so long ago. The whole "three strikes" thing. They ended up having jails so full that people were being convicted of serious crimes, like impaired operation causing injury, then being put straight back on the street because there was nowhere to house them. There's a balance to be found. I think that it's somewhere around, "You've got three consecutive cases against you and were out on bail for the last two, so no soup for you."
 
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backmarkerducati said:
Lots of finger pointing on bail (the problem is not just bail BTW) and repeat offenders, I really think the items below need to be fixed before just adding more laws...
  • Current jails in Ontario are full/over capacity so apparently judges are being lenient on bail as there is no place to put them.
  • Same with repeat offenders, no place to put them.
Click to expand...

I've had a front seat with this s_hit for over 30 years...
'You know why the provincial jails are over capacity..? I'll tell ya.
There aren't enough mental health facilities in Ontario.
It used to be you'd have a handful of obviously mentally ill inmates in custody on any given day... For years now and it's getting worse, you've got entire units/ranges populated by "nut bars". Everything from the mildly schizophrenic to your poo-poo Picasos.
Many of these inmates aren't "criminal"... They're sick.
There's no help for them anywhere else so... They end up in jail, often on minor charges that ANYONE else would be released on a Promise to Appear" or be granted bail.
These mentally ill offenders are often unable to get bail because they don't have anyone to act as surety for them.
They don't have any money so... The only access to counsel they have is the over burdened Legal Aid system.
Unlike your more sophisticated crooks with money and lawyers these folks are so disenfranchised they have no way to advocate for themselves.
Sure, there are a lot of sick f_ckes who belong locked up, but... The vast majority would be better served in a so called "mental hospitals".

As for repeat offenders... yup, that's another group wasting space. These useless jug-ups never learn or change. About the only thing they do is provide solid job security for everyone working in the system.
 
Gaoler said:
I've had a front seat with this s_hit for over 30 years...
'You know why the provincial jails are over capacity..? I'll tell ya.
There aren't enough mental health facilities in Ontario.
It used to be you'd have a handful of obviously mentally ill inmates in custody on any given day... For years now and it's getting worse, you've got entire units/ranges populated by "nut bars". Everything from the mildly schizophrenic to your poo-poo Picasos.
Many of these inmates aren't "criminal"... They're sick.
There's no help for them anywhere else so... They end up in jail, often on minor charges that ANYONE else would be released on a Promise to Appear" or be granted bail.
These mentally ill offenders are often unable to get bail because they don't have anyone to act as surety for them.
They don't have any money so... The only access to counsel they have is the over burdened Legal Aid system.
Unlike your more sophisticated crooks with money and lawyers these folks are so disenfranchised they have no way to advocate for themselves.
Sure, there are a lot of sick f_ckes who belong locked up, but... The vast majority would be better served in a so called "mental hospitals".

As for repeat offenders... yup, that's another group wasting space. These useless jug-ups never learn or change. About the only thing they do is provide solid job security for everyone working in the system.
Click to expand...

I have someone close that has been in the front line of youth corrections for the last 15 years. They work closely with kids that need mental health support. I cringe when everyone just says to lock criminals up and throw away the key. People really don't understand the conditions that lead to these kids committing crimes. I tell everyone that they always have openings for officers, and the pay is really good, but no one wants to do the job. It's so easy to just say to lock them up, but the actual logistics of doing that is so far beyond peoples understanding. I mean, I could literally make twice as much money as I do now, and I could almost be guaranteed to get in, and I still won't do it because it's just an insanely toxic environment. (And adult facilities are even worse....)
 
Gaoler said:
I've had a front seat with this s_hit for over 30 years...
'You know why the provincial jails are over capacity..? I'll tell ya.
There aren't enough mental health facilities in Ontario.
It used to be you'd have a handful of obviously mentally ill inmates in custody on any given day... For years now and it's getting worse, you've got entire units/ranges populated by "nut bars". Everything from the mildly schizophrenic to your poo-poo Picasos.
Many of these inmates aren't "criminal"... They're sick.
There's no help for them anywhere else so... They end up in jail, often on minor charges that ANYONE else would be released on a Promise to Appear" or be granted bail.
These mentally ill offenders are often unable to get bail because they don't have anyone to act as surety for them.
They don't have any money so... The only access to counsel they have is the over burdened Legal Aid system.
Unlike your more sophisticated crooks with money and lawyers these folks are so disenfranchised they have no way to advocate for themselves.
Sure, there are a lot of sick f_ckes who belong locked up, but... The vast majority would be better served in a so called "mental hospitals".

As for repeat offenders... yup, that's another group wasting space. These useless jug-ups never learn or change. About the only thing they do is provide solid job security for everyone working in the system.
Click to expand...
I liked Mikey Harris, but closing the phsych wards w/o any replacement is something we still have issues with. The same is the case with many in homeless camps I'm sure.
 
Gaoler said:
I've had a front seat with this s_hit for over 30 years...
'You know why the provincial jails are over capacity..? I'll tell ya.
There aren't enough mental health facilities in Ontario.
It used to be you'd have a handful of obviously mentally ill inmates in custody on any given day... For years now and it's getting worse, you've got entire units/ranges populated by "nut bars". Everything from the mildly schizophrenic to your poo-poo Picasos.
Many of these inmates aren't "criminal"... They're sick.
There's no help for them anywhere else so... They end up in jail, often on minor charges that ANYONE else would be released on a Promise to Appear" or be granted bail.
These mentally ill offenders are often unable to get bail because they don't have anyone to act as surety for them.
They don't have any money so... The only access to counsel they have is the over burdened Legal Aid system.
Unlike your more sophisticated crooks with money and lawyers these folks are so disenfranchised they have no way to advocate for themselves.
Sure, there are a lot of sick f_ckes who belong locked up, but... The vast majority would be better served in a so called "mental hospitals".

As for repeat offenders... yup, that's another group wasting space. These useless jug-ups never learn or change. About the only thing they do is provide solid job security for everyone working in the system.
Click to expand...
I agree, there are many causes to the "storage capacity" problems not just the number of jail beds by itself. But this still falls mostly on the province (jail) and it is something the province has the power to fix, IF they wanted to.
 
timtune said:
I liked Mikey Harris, but closing the phsych wards w/o any replacement is something we still have issues with. The same is the case with many in homeless camps I'm sure.
Click to expand...


Mike Harris was as out of touch with reality as any politico...
I remember when he ordered that all TVs and recreational equipment were to be removed from Ontario Correctional Insts.
Sure... They were "removed", then put right back the next day..
Like WTF Mike..? Sure lets have loads of locked up angry dudes with NOTHING to do to pass the time...
 
backmarkerducati said:
I agree, there are many causes to the "storage capacity" problems not just the number of jail beds by itself. But this still falls mostly on the province (jail) and it is something the province has the power to fix, IF they wanted to.
Click to expand...


"They" don't want to fix anything... It provides the crisis required to justify positions, committees, budgets etc...
 
Gaoler said:
"They" don't want to fix anything... It provides the crisis required to justify positions, committees, budgets etc...
Click to expand...
"I need more staff and since I'm managing more staff I need a raise, an assistant, travel account to go to seminars in Vegas...."
 
nobbie48 said:
"I need more staff and since I'm managing more staff I need a raise, an assistant, travel account to go to seminars in Vegas...."
Click to expand...

You have that right except for the "more staff" part... Lol.

Well... They hire more staff, but just friends/family to fill positions that don't really contribute much to operations.
I've seen assistants have "assistants" for what amounts to nothing more than a filing clerks gig.
I swear I think they hire people to walk around with a travel mug "visiting" offices recruiting for the next big smoke break.
Meanwhile... Critical front line staffing goes short.
 
Dirty Frank said:
Another rcmp make work project. Anyone care to hazard a guess how many tax dollars this shitshow burnt?
windsorstar.com

'Mr. Big' undercover cop testifies at Windsor terrorism trial

'Eric' was an undercover RCMP operative involved in a 3-month police sting leading up to Bertrand’s arrest outside his Windsor home in 2022.
windsorstar.com windsorstar.com
We all should all sleep better at night knowing these guys are on the job.
Click to expand...
Indeed, this tactic is "banned in some countries." It's called entrapment.
 
Not sure whether this is good or bad. A guy was living in a motorhome in Barrie was parked behind a grocery store. He moves it around often to avoid getting in trouble. Yesterday morning there was a report he had a gun (and maybe a gunshot? Unconfirmed) and police obviously responded. Evacuated the nearby businesses and homes. Something north of 10 police for 14 hours before the guy surrendered peacefully. Now area is still secured for hazmat. Residents haven't been allowed to return home at all and many had pets that have been unattended for more than 24 hours at this point. It was obviously a good resolution but at what cost and are we doing anything to prevent it from happening again? Arresting this guy was probably more than $20k. Good odds that he is out again this afternoon (and maybe without his house depending on what they find). What does he do then?
 
GreyGhost said:
Not sure whether this is good or bad. A guy was living in a motorhome in Barrie was parked behind a grocery store. He moves it around often to avoid getting in trouble. Yesterday morning there was a report he had a gun (and maybe a gunshot? Unconfirmed) and police obviously responded. Evacuated the nearby businesses and homes. Something north of 10 police for 14 hours before the guy surrendered peacefully. Now area is still secured for hazmat. Residents haven't been allowed to return home at all and many had pets that have been unattended for more than 24 hours at this point. It was obviously a good resolution but at what cost and are we doing anything to prevent it from happening again? Arresting this guy was probably more than $20k. Good odds that he is out again this afternoon (and maybe without his house depending on what they find). What does he do then?
Click to expand...
I wonder if someone just got tired of him and made a false gun report to get police on him? Wouldn't be the first time.

EDIT - Story here:

www.barrietoday.com

Witnesses heard gunshot earlier today as armed standoff with police continues

'An officer approached us to inform us we were in a dangerous spot because there was a shooter in the RV who has a gun that can shoot as far as where we were standing,' says witness; call on Bayfield Street came into police around noon Tuesday
www.barrietoday.com www.barrietoday.com
 
Rob MacLennan said:
It's called entrapment.
Click to expand...
Not EXACTLY entrapment... the RCMP have high priced lawyers to advise, so they don't actually entrap anyone... but in these cases there would be no crime or no conspiracy to commit a crime without the RCMP.
Just look at the Nutall/ Korody case in Victoria. These idiots got a film deal out of the mess... when they couldn't arrange a pissup at a brewery... on a good day

Just in case anyone of youse get caught up in a " Mr. Big"... that's not how organized crime works. If you want to get "made" you have to commit a crime for benefit of the syndicate... no one in organized crime can make a past record "go away"... it just doesn't work that way.
 
bitzz said:
Not EXACTLY entrapment... the RCMP have high priced lawyers to advise, so they don't actually entrap anyone... but in these cases there would be no crime or no conspiracy to commit a crime without the RCMP.
Just look at the Nutall/ Korody case in Victoria. These idiots got a film deal out of the mess... when they couldn't arrange a pissup at a brewery... on a good day

Just in case anyone of youse get caught up in a " Mr. Big"... that's not how organized crime works. If you want to get "made" you have to commit a crime for benefit of the syndicate... no one in organized crime can make a past record "go away"... it just doesn't work that way.
Click to expand...

Those are the two people I was referring to..
 
Rob MacLennan said:
I wonder if someone just got tired of him and made a false gun report to get police on him? Wouldn't be the first time.

EDIT - Story here:

www.barrietoday.com

Witnesses heard gunshot earlier today as armed standoff with police continues

'An officer approached us to inform us we were in a dangerous spot because there was a shooter in the RV who has a gun that can shoot as far as where we were standing,' says witness; call on Bayfield Street came into police around noon Tuesday
www.barrietoday.com www.barrietoday.com
Click to expand...
Further description of what happened.

https://www.facebook.com/atthescene/posts/pfbid023iizz2mEKpewBsVnt5PrYXQfJ8m26YZYFMiyUZvxpftz9B3HTyw4h3Nf6VMrm88bl

"
After receiving information about an individual in crisis, who was in an RV with a firearm, Barrie Police responded to the parking lot at 409 Bayfield Street on Tuesday, November 19th. Police made contact with the male inside the vehicle just before noon. At that time, the male discharged a firearm, but thankfully no one was injured.
Uniformed officers, the Tactical Support Team, and Crisis Negotiators were on hand to work towards a peaceful resolution to the situation. Nearby homes and businesses were evacuated out of an abundance of caution, but all evacuations have now been lifted.
The Barrie Police Service would like to thank the Ontario Provincial Police who provided overnight relief support in order for BPS members to rest before returning to the scene.
On Wednesday morning, shortly after 4:00 a.m., the male surrendered to police and was taken into custody without issue. No injuries were reported. He was then transported to receive medical attention and will be facing multiple criminal charges.
After the male’s arrest, the Barrie Police Explosives Disposal Unit was called to investigate several apparent improvised explosive devices located within the RV. All devices were safely and successfully neutralized or removed from the scene."
 
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