Law Enforcement - The Good, The Bad, The Ugly.....

[Rob MacLennan]

Police use a use of force continuum . Not confrontatiom can be covered by policy .

I think you are talking to about Sammy . He had a knife a deadly weapon . You don't fight people with knives with OC or tazer . The knife makes it a firearm responce . You need minimum 21 feet for safety .

Out of hundreds of thousands interactions between the public and police . I bet shootings way down the list of use of force .

Apparently the senior officer felt comfortable enough about the distance and impediment to attack that she put away her firearm. After the shooting another officer Tasered the corpse.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Obviously, but when in otherwise legal use there is no law against having a full magazine and that "extra" round up the spout.
It's a common practice in many shooting sports... ie. IPSC, IDPA as well as the litany of other action shooting sports and is not limited to handguns...
Topping up in this manner is also practiced with rifles and shotguns

I believe the wording is something like "where it is safe and legal to do so, as at a range."

 

[Evoex]

Police use a use of force continuum . Not confrontatiom can be covered by policy .

I think you are talking to about Sammy . He had a knife a deadly weapon . You don't fight people with knives with OC or tazer . The knife makes it a firearm responce . You need minimum 21 feet for safety .

Not buying it.

I'm in fact well versed on the kill potential of knives, your tax dollars paid me to learn half a life time ago.

But let's not deviate, i'm not discussing taser deployment, by all means have your weapon ready and pointed if you feel threatened. I don't think getting gunned down before trying anything else was appropriate.

*mods remove as you see fit*

 

[pfbmgd]

It's absolutely about the money. In Canada police departments request higher and higher budgets, while doing almost nothing to train their officers in how to deal with people in crisis. And police SHOULD NOT be expected to be front line mental health care workers, in addition to their policing duties, and yet they are. And in Canada they can't even use the excuse of "cost savings" for obtaining that military hardware, because it's far more pricey than what they would otherwise be obtaining.

So "defund the police" and move that additional unneeded financial expenditure to training and deploying people who are properly trained in deescalation procedures, then have them work in conjunction with police.

If someone is barricaded in a house and is currently no danger to anyone but himself, there is no immediate need to "take him down." And yet, time and again, we see police storm a building because there seems to be some sort of manufactured pressing need to do so. Sure, there are times when there's a clear and present danger to others, however, that was why SWAT/ER Teams were created. Not every cop on the street needs to be able to hang in a protracted firefight, using actual military grade weapons.

In the United States the mindset of police has moved so far that the Taser is no longer a "less lethal" means of taking someone into custody. It's now, effectively, a tool for obtaining compliance. "Do this, now, or you'll be Tased." When time isn't a factor, why do this? Is it because the officer is angry that his authority is being ignored? That he's being disrespected? I've seen far too many interactions, with police, in which there was no pressing need to have someone comply *right now*.

The police are front line mental health workers . Are you going to call a psychologist to deal with a personwith psychosis with possible weapons . Have you ever dealt with a person in psychosis ? It is not a pleasant experience . Even with trained people that know how to deescalate violent sutuations . Force is required to administer medication or to confine the person .

The police have studied many barricaded situations working with negotiators . I'm sure there comes a time during a confrontation . Where the suspect gives signs of hurting himself . That is usually when entry is made to try to save the person . It is not an exact science . But I'm sure the negotiators know the signs . I doubt they just show up and barge in .

Pretty well all the videos I have seen . Is the drivers refusing to follow police orders . The suspect usually has a poor attitude towards the police . They refuse the orders . They police use the tazer bdrastically ecause it is seen as the least use of force . A guy at Tazer told me they bring down injuries to officers drasticlly compared to OC or batton .

How many hours do you think the police should negotiate for a driver to show identify themselves ?

 

[pfbmgd]

Apparently the senior officer felt comfortable enough about the distance and impediment to attack that she put away her firearm. After the shooting another officer Tasered the corpse.

I never said it was not a proper shooting . But not all officers perspective is the same .

 

[pfbmgd]

Not buying it.

I'm in fact well versed on the kill potential of knives, your tax dollars paid me to learn half a life time ago.

But let's not deviate, i'm not discussing taser deployment, by all means have your weapon ready and pointed if you feel threatened. I don't think getting gunned down before trying anything else was appropriate.

*mods remove as you see fit*

Not sure why the people were rushing off the street car . With the look of terror . All they had to do is talk to Sammy . The first shoots are explainable . The second volley not so much .

 

[GreyGhost]

Police use a use of force continuum . Not confrontatiom can be covered by policy .

I think you are talking to about Sammy . He had a knife a deadly weapon . You don't fight people with knives with OC or tazer . The knife makes it a firearm responce . You need minimum 21 feet for safety .

Out of hundreds of thousands interactions between the public and police . I bet shootings way down the list of use of force .

Cop closed to less than 21 feet. No other cop made such a poor decision to force the shoot.

 

[pfbmgd]

My mistake... it's 51 rounds. 52 if the pistol is carried with a full magazine and one up the spout.
I'm basing this on the assumption the pistol is question is a Glock 17... probably the most widely issued police sidearm.
Each G17mag holds 17 rounds so...
One in the gun and two spares on the belt... 17+17+17=51
Capacity varies slightly amongst different pistols... the OPP's SIG mags are 15 IIRC and back when Guelph City Police stil had their Berettas... they held only 11, but...
I digress...
What I'm trying to get across us that the average load out for the average cop on patrol is significantly different than it was when I was a kid...
'Far from my S&W model 10 with two 6 round speed loaders..

That is because so many got killed by being out gunned . The resean they carry semi is because they are easier to reload . The ammount of rounds they carry is probably from studies of shooting over the years . The looked at how many rounds get fired in a shotting . Probably add a few to be on the safe side . I thought it was 46 rounds . But if they have 51 I have no issue .

 

[GreyGhost]

That is because so many got killed by being out gunned . The resean they carry semi is because they are easier to reload . The ammount of rounds they carry is probably from studies of shooting over the years . The looked at how many rounds get fired in a shotting . Probably add a few to be on the safe side . I thought it was 46 rounds . But if they have 51 I have no issue .

They need a hell of a lot more training and then they could have a hell of a lot less rounds. You can't miss fast enough to win. Normally they are going up against one to four bad guys. That gives you more than 10 rounds each. If your hit rate is <<50% you shouldnt be allowed to carry in public. You are a menace until you improve.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

The police are front line mental health workers . Are you going to call a psychologist to deal with a personwith psychosis with possible weapons . Have you ever dealt with a person in psychosis ? It is not a pleasant experience . Even with trained people that know how to deescalate violent sutuations . Force is required to administer medication or to confine the person .

The police have studied many barricaded situations working with negotiators . I'm sure there comes a time during a confrontation . Where the suspect gives signs of hurting himself . That is usually when entry is made to try to save the person . It is not an exact science . But I'm sure the negotiators know the signs . I doubt they just show up and barge in .

Pretty well all the videos I have seen . Is the drivers refusing to follow police orders . The suspect usually has a poor attitude towards the police . They refuse the orders . They police use the tazer bdrastically ecause it is seen as the least use of force . A guy at Tazer told me they bring down injuries to officers drasticlly compared to OC or batton .

How many hours do you think the police should negotiate for a driver to show identify themselves ?

Have I ever dealt with a person suffering from psychosis? No, I leave that to people who deal with people in mental crisis every day, and so should police.

The usual go-to for police, when someone is threatening harm to themselves, is to shoot that person. Doesn't that seem to be a self defeating strategy? Sure, there are times when you're going to eventually have to breach, but even police forces recognize the utility of having a trained negotiator on staff. They just need more of them, with more focused training. "Barging in" should be the last option, when someone is in the middle of a mental health crisis.

"A guy from Taser..." So he doesn't have a dog in the fight? You might want to do a little research on how Axon deals with damage claims and lawsuits. And with how data is disseminated. The least use of force is no force. The Use of Force Continuum, that you previously mentioned, indicates that "open hand" comes before less lethal options. In far too many cases officers choose to skip this step completely, because watching someone do The Worm on the asphalt is oh, so much easier. Even then the use of a Taser seems to be roughly a 50/50 proposition, as to whether or not it's going to be effective.

How many hours? That's not the question, when incidents seem to escalate to the use of a Taser in minutes.

 

[pfbmgd]

Have I ever dealt with a person suffering from psychosis? No, I leave that to people who deal with people in mental crisis every day, and so should police.

The usual go-to for police, when someone is threatening harm to themselves, is to shoot that person. Doesn't that seem to be a self defeating strategy? Sure, there are times when you're going to eventually have to breach, but even police forces recognize the utility of having a trained negotiator on staff. They just need more of them, with more focused training. "Barging in" should be the last option, when someone is in the middle of a mental health crisis.

"A guy from Taser..." So he doesn't have a dog in the fight? You might want to do a little research on how Axon deals with damage claims and lawsuits. And with how data is disseminated. The least use of force is no force. The Use of Force Continuum, that you previously mentioned, indicates that "open hand" comes before less lethal options. In far too many cases officers choose to skip this step completely, because watching someone do The Worm on the asphalt is oh, so much easier. Even then the use of a Taser seems to be roughly a 50/50 proposition, as to whether or not it's going to be effective.

How many hours? That's not the question, when incidents seem to escalate to the use of a Taser in minutes.

So you are on a street car with the doors closed . A guy goes crazy pull a knife threatening people He is unresponsive to verbal commands . Do you want to wait for the hour for a social worker ?

Ok how much of your disposable income are you willing to give up to pay for this ? I can all be done but are you willing to pay an extra 2K or 3K in taxes per year ? We can hire all these people . Then in the end the social worker will want a cop anyways to protect them .


Ok I will bite give me the link to the Axon and their law suits .

The tazer is used before " open hand " . So officer will not get injured fighting with the suspect . Many departments have that as least lethal option after verbal .

You never answered how many hours negotiations for a driver refusing to identify ? What would you consider resonable ?

 

[pfbmgd]

Have I ever dealt with a person suffering from psychosis? No, I leave that to people who deal with people in mental crisis every day, and so should police.

The usual go-to for police, when someone is threatening harm to themselves, is to shoot that person. Doesn't that seem to be a self defeating strategy? Sure, there are times when you're going to eventually have to breach, but even police forces recognize the utility of having a trained negotiator on staff. They just need more of them, with more focused training. "Barging in" should be the last option, when someone is in the middle of a mental health crisis.

"A guy from Taser..." So he doesn't have a dog in the fight? You might want to do a little research on how Axon deals with damage claims and lawsuits. And with how data is disseminated. The least use of force is no force. The Use of Force Continuum, that you previously mentioned, indicates that "open hand" comes before less lethal options. In far too many cases officers choose to skip this step completely, because watching someone do The Worm on the asphalt is oh, so much easier. Even then the use of a Taser seems to be roughly a 50/50 proposition, as to whether or not it's going to be effective.

How many hours? That's not the question, when incidents seem to escalate to the use of a Taser in minutes.

Oh yeah the police barge in to try to save the person from taking their life . Yes at times they may kill the suspect . But in many they save their life . I bet stats will show save way more then kill .

 

[Evoex]

So you are on a street car with the doors closed . A guy goes crazy pull a knife threatening people He is unresponsive to verbal commands . Do you want to wait for the hour for a social worker ?

Streetcar is empty, there's 5? more? armed police officers on the scene, most seem pretty involved with what the kid on the streetcar is doing. I'd say the immediate threat to their lives with him on the streetcar is marginal. A few already have weapons drawn and aimed at his chest, this severely reduces a kill threat from a knife wielder.

What else could be more important then de escalating the situation and saving a life? Yes you wait.

We can try to find the original unedited video but if you aren't going to debate a cut and paste job the 'event' lasted roughly 50 seconds. I would say his life was worth more then that effort.

 

[pfbmgd]

Streetcar is empty, there's 5? more? armed police officers on the scene, most seem pretty involved with what the kid on the streetcar is doing. I'd say the immediate threat to their lives with him on the streetcar is marginal. A few already have weapons drawn and aimed at his chest, this severely reduces a kill threat from a knife wielder.

What else could be more important then de escalating the situation and saving a life? Yes you wait.

We can try to find the original unedited video but if you aren't going to debate a cut and paste job the 'event' lasted roughly 50 seconds. I would say his life was worth more then that effort.

I was making an example of people not being able to leave the car . Not talking about Sammy at all .

I already stated first shoots can be justified . The second volley not .

 

[Evoex]

I was making an example of people not being able to leave the car . Not talking about Sammy at all .

I already stated first shoots can be justified . The second volley not .

Yeah if you`re going to pull a knife on someone and threaten them you'll get put down, I'm fine with that.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

So you are on a street car with the doors closed . A guy goes crazy pull a knife threatening people He is unresponsive to verbal commands . Do you want to wait for the hour for a social worker ?

Ok how much of your disposable income are you willing to give up to pay for this ? I can all be done but are you willing to pay an extra 2K or 3K in taxes per year ? We can hire all these people . Then in the end the social worker will want a cop anyways to protect them .


Ok I will bite give me the link to the Axon and their law suits .

The tazer is used before " open hand " . So officer will not get injured fighting with the suspect . Many departments have that as least lethal option after verbal .

You never answered how many hours negotiations for a driver refusing to identify ? What would you consider resonable ?

You're on a streetcar with the doors closed. A guy goes crazy and starts threatening people with a knife. The streetcar operator has him largely calmed down before police arrive and the passengers are off. What do you do? I guess you put yourself close enough that you feel threatened, shoot the guy who can't reach you, then have a co-worker Taser the corpse. Does that seem reasonable, or does waiting for an hour for a "social worker" make more sense? The former gets you a dead suspect. The latter might get you a live suspect, with no one being in danger for that hour. There was no pressing need to force the issue.

As I said, divert the money being wasted on militarizing police and spend it on training for people trained in mental health intervention. That's what "defund the police" means.

Sure. Here's another link for you to ignore, about how Axon gets in the way of investigations, involving their weapons.

Shock Tactics: Taser inserts itself in probes involving its stun guns

Taser has defended the safety of its weapons by funding research and forging ties with cops and coroners. After a death, it springs into action

www.reuters.com

I suggest that you review the Continuum of Force model for Ontario, if you think that things like conductive energy weapons come before hands-on control. I will attach it here.

And you never asked a reasonable question. As I said it's not hours of negotiation, but rather minutes until someone gets Tasered.How many minutes is too long to wait, for the ego of an officer?

 

[Hack]

On a drop-safe gun (was it military or rcmp that recently flubbed that one) why would it matter if one was in the chamber? You either pull the trigger and get a bang or you dont pull the trigger and there is no bang.

I'm really only talking about having that one up the spout in the context of adding that ONE extra round for whatever purpose... Cuz as with most things... More is better.
When carrying a pistol for self defense... Not having a round chambered is insane. That weapon needs to be ready to go immediately. As in clearing the holster, on target and bang.
In a sporting context it's just about having an extra round... cuz... MOAR>!!!

 

[GreyGhost]

I'm really only talking about having that one up the spout in the context of adding that ONE extra round for whatever purpose... Cuz as with most things... More is better.
When carrying a pistol for self defense... Not having a round chambered is insane. That weapon needs to be ready to go immediately. As in clearing the holster, on target and bang.
In a sporting context it's just about having an extra round... cuz... MOAR>!!!

I'm with you, but since there was some discussion about one in the chamber I wasn't sure if SOP was for Ontario cops to carry empty chamber (dumb idea imo but lots of policies are dumb imo).

 

[Hack]

That is because so many got killed by being out gunned . The resean they carry semi is because they are easier to reload . The ammount of rounds they carry is probably from studies of shooting over the years . The looked at how many rounds get fired in a shotting . Probably add a few to be on the safe side . I thought it was 46 rounds . But if they have 51 I have no issue .

In Ontario the only reason police ditched the wheel-gun is because our friend and former CITY TV personality Cam Wooly started lobbying for it after long multi jurisdictional chase and shoot out in 1993... IIRC it was an MOL order that forced the change.
Some services, WRP for one had begun the switch to pistols as early as 1986, but they were certainly the exception rather than the rule. I only say '86 cuz I think that's about when I started seeing guys carrying the First Generation wonder nine... the G17.
Most still carried revolvers, but once in a while you'd see a dude with a semi. (snicker...snicker)

 

[Hack]

I wasn't sure if SOP was for Ontario cops to carry empty chamber

Absophuking lootly No.