Justin Time

[GreyGhost]

No data is needed. They were made in a factory in a first world country and sold legally into a supply chain. From there, stolen, straw buying and smugling... But they left the factory as perfectly legal firearms for the intended market.

Or are you saying US and European fore arm factories are selling arms directly to the black market?

Exceptions, DIY, 3D printing and maybe the odd weapon coming from the third world, not in this case.

But literally the only portion of the supply chain being targeted is canadian gun owners. To the best of my knowledge their contribution to the percentage of illegal guns is a rounding error. Spending a huge amount of money on something that is statistically irrelevant is crazy talk. If it was the last 0.001%, you may have a point, but starting with this much money to go from 100% to 99.999% access to guns is dumb. You need to attack mechanisms to get 10's of percent off at the beginning of a battle.

 

[Evoex]

No data is needed. They were made in a factory in a first world country and sold legally into a supply chain. From there, stolen, straw buying and smugling... But they left the factory as perfectly legal firearms for the intended market.

Or are you saying US and European fore arm factories are selling arms directly to the black market?

Exceptions, DIY, 3D printing and maybe the odd weapon coming from the third world, not in this case.

No data is needed..yeah we're done here lol.

 

[backmarkerducati]

So to prevent something that has never happened in Canada, you should punish tens of thousands of law abiding people to potentially stop one person in the future?

The program seems to be to be grossly disproportionate in scope compared to the real problem. That money would make a much larger difference in safety in Canada if it was targeted at actual documented problems (eg gangs, handguns, illegal imports, etc) that happen almost daily instead of a potential theoretical thing that may happen at some point in the future.

You honestly don't think legally purchased guns are not used like this in Canada? Ecole Polytechnique Massacre???? WTF.

None of this is one dimensional.... chipping away is one aspect... targeting certain people another....it will likely also play well for JT in the next election for the general unarmed populace and will be political suicide for the Cons to say they are lifting the ban. The gun crowd wasn't going to vote for him anyways. You guys really need to open up how you are looking at this to understand what is going on, it is not just about a body count.

 

[Evoex]

You honestly don't think legally purchased guns are not used like this in Canada? Ecole Polytechnique Massacre???? WTF.

None of this is one dimensional.... chipping away is one aspect... targeting certain people another....it will likely also play well for JT in the next election for the general unarmed populace and will be political suicide for the Cons to say they are lifting the ban. The gun crowd wasn't going to vote for him anyways. You guys really need to open up how you are looking at this to understand what is going on, it is not just about a body count.

I think you are the closed minded one here. Sorry.

I ask you to show me the numbers, you say numbers dont matter. WTF?

 

[backmarkerducati]

But literally the only portion of the supply chain being targeted is canadian gun owners. To the best of my knowledge their contribution to the percentage of illegal guns is a rounding error. Spending a huge amount of money on something that is statistically irrelevant is crazy talk. If it was the last 0.001%, you may have a point, but starting with this much money to go from 100% to 99.999% access to guns is dumb. You need to attack mechanisms to get 10's of percent off at the beginning of a battle.

They target what they actually can, gain the political points. Again not one dimensional. Agreed it is not going to make a meaningful impact but you guys keep looking at htis as some one dimensional legislation.

No data is needed..yeah we're done here lol.

I would like to see your data on how guns made in factories in the first world are sold directly to the black market???????? Either this is happening or they all enter the supply chain legally, it is simple really?

 

[Evoex]

They target what they actually can, gain the political points. Again not one dimensional. Agreed it is not going to make a meaningful impact but you guys keep looking at htis as some one dimensional legislation.



I would like to see your data on how guns made in factories in the first world are sold directly to the black market????????

LOL. I ask you to show me numbers for your argument, you refuse. Then ask to see my numbers? Is this a joke? Jesus.

 

[backmarkerducati]

LOL. I ask you to show me numbers for your argument, you refuse. Then ask to see my numbers? Is this a joke? Jesus.

And you refuse.... makes YOU just like me then.

 

[Evoex]

They target what they actually can, gain the political points. Again not one dimensional. Agreed it is not going to make a meaningful impact but you guys keep looking at htis as some one dimensional legislation.



I would like to see your data on how guns made in factories in the first world are sold directly to the black market???????? Either this is happening or they all enter the supply chain legally, it is simple really?

Obviously it was a political ploy, search my posts I've said exactly that. Were not OK with that and no one gun owner or otherwise should be.

 

[Evoex]

And you refuse....

Because you're full of ****. If I had even an inkling that you'd be for a reasonable and factual based debate id put the effort in. But you're not, so I won't.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Because you're full of ****. If I had even an inkling that you'd be for a reasonable and factual based debate id put the effort in. But you're not, so I won't.

So the gun makers are selling directly into the black market? Shouldn't something be done about that?

 

[killvino]

You honestly don't think legally purchased guns are not used like this in Canada? Ecole Polytechnique Massacre???? WTF.

None of this is one dimensional.... chipping away is one aspect... targeting certain people another....it will likely also play well for JT in the next election for the general unarmed populace and will be political suicide for the Cons to say they are lifting the ban. The gun crowd wasn't going to vote for him anyways. You guys really need to open up how you are looking at this to understand what is going on, it is not just about a body count.

Polytech was 31 years ago and the gun used was not only not banned, it remained non-restricted (untraced) for that long. It has NEVER been used in a shooting since then. Also, I have not heard of another type of wannabe tacticool shooter geared up in Canada since then.

 

[killvino]

You should go out and meet some recreational shooters before you label 'types'. Canada =/= America. They have those 'types' we do not.

 

[GreyGhost]

You should go out and meet some recreational shooters before you label 'types'. Canada =/= America. They have those 'types' we do not.

That may be a bit far. I'm sure we have some of those types here too. Just not nearly as many and they are not dumb enough to go wandering around in public dressed up as GI Joe as Canadian society and law enforcement does not put up with that stupidity. Actually I know for a fact we have some within the recreational shooting community but the ones I know I am not worried about them shooting people.

 

[backmarkerducati]

You should go out and meet some recreational shooters before you label 'types'. Canada =/= America. They have those 'types' we do not.

I am one (rec shooter), or actually was as I have not done it in a long time. They (idiots) are not usually at the gun clubs because stupidity it not well tolerated, but I have seen many many many of those types here.

My point is that legislation like this is NOT some one dimensional body count based thing. One of those dimensions are SOME OF the people that want said thing (the mentioned type and they are here in good numbers, mostly rural with more out west), they are targeted in this (like house on wheels pit bull owners) but all the good people get hit as well. Not much different than say the last government's talk of a burka ban, do you really think it was just about the article of clothing, or even women's rights? Never one dimensional.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Because you're full of ****. If I had even an inkling that you'd be for a reasonable and factual based debate id put the effort in. But you're not, so I won't.

Inside the Black Market for Guns

Across a conference room table on the 35th floor of a Manhattan high rise were three agents with decades of experience investigating gunrunning and other crimes for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). One of the many questions I wanted to answer in my book The Future [...]

www.forbes.com

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

How dangerous people get their guns in America

While mass shootings like Las Vegas make headlines, gun violence in some neighborhoods is almost routine. Where do the guns come from?

www.cbsnews.com

Where do criminals really get their guns?

On average, just under 40,000 people each year die across the country in a gun-related death. So where do criminals typically buy their guns? And do most criminals seek out their weapons of choice through means, not above board?

www.foxnews.com

Even Fox news breaks it down with their twist. They enter the supply chain as legal guns, no one is buying black market factory direct. Plus the gun makers all are very clear they do not sell into the black market (although they could be lying, I will give you that). DOJ, FBI and ATF are as full of it as I am I guess.

Back to what I was saying, they leave the first world factory as legal guns legally into a supply chain then the legal gun gets "diverted" (stolen in the chain or after sale, straw purchase, etc.).... From Fox News:

"An official with the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Explosives (ATF) – the federal agency under the Department of Justice (DOJ) tasked with tracking and recovering trafficked weapons – told Fox News that “guns enter illegal commerce through one of three ways.”

The first is by private transactions in which guns bought at gun shows, flea markets or through private sales are later sold to prohibited persons.

The second, the official underscored, was by straw purchasers – individuals who buy guns from dealers and transfer them to prohibited persons.

The third category is theft from gun dealers and private citizens. Gun traffickers transfer guns from legal commerce to illegal commerce and are “considered to be violent criminals,” the official said."

All three started as guns legally entering the supply chain!

But another interesting bit from Fox:

“Statistics show that those individuals committing ‘mass killings’ during ‘active shooter’ events do so utilizing weapons that have been obtained legally by themselves or a friend or family member,” observed Charles Marino, CEO of Sentinel Security Solutions. “Statistics show that those individuals committing what is known as ‘street crimes’ are typically doing so by utilizing weapons that have been initially stolen and may have further traded hands in the black market.”

The exceptions of course are homemade guns, 3D printed guns and potentially guns from the third world. From the Fox news I guess kit guns as well. All of these are still pretty small potatoes.

Is that good enough or do you still need more "proof"?

Please post your data on guns going black market direct from first world factories....

 

[backmarkerducati]

Polytech was 31 years ago and the gun used was not only not banned, it remained non-restricted (untraced) for that long. It has NEVER been used in a shooting since then. Also, I have not heard of another type of wannabe tacticool shooter geared up in Canada since then.

So the changes worked back then?

Luckily we do not have many mass shootings so I agree the stats are hard to evaluate here. But we can look south, this is from Fox News (posted link previously) of all places.... they have LOTS of stats on mass shootings.

“Statistics show that those individuals committing ‘mass killings’ during ‘active shooter’ events do so utilizing weapons that have been obtained legally by themselves or a friend or family member,” observed Charles Marino, CEO of Sentinel Security Solutions. “Statistics show that those individuals committing what is known as ‘street crimes’ are typically doing so by utilizing weapons that have been initially stolen and may have further traded hands in the black market.”

Sandy Hook in the US is a prime example (obtained by a family member/mother and taken....)

Too much focus on this aspect and this is not one dimensional...

 

[GreyGhost]

Inside the Black Market for Guns

Across a conference room table on the 35th floor of a Manhattan high rise were three agents with decades of experience investigating gunrunning and other crimes for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). One of the many questions I wanted to answer in my book The Future [...]

www.forbes.com

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

How dangerous people get their guns in America

While mass shootings like Las Vegas make headlines, gun violence in some neighborhoods is almost routine. Where do the guns come from?

www.cbsnews.com

Where do criminals really get their guns?

On average, just under 40,000 people each year die across the country in a gun-related death. So where do criminals typically buy their guns? And do most criminals seek out their weapons of choice through means, not above board?

www.foxnews.com

Even Fox news breaks it down with their twist. They enter the supply chain as legal guns, no one is buying black market factory direct. Plus the gun makers all are very clear they do not sell into the black market (although they could be lying, I will give you that). DOJ, FBI and ATF are as full of it as I am I guess.

Back to what I was saying, they leave the first world factory as legal guns legally into a supply chain then the legal gun gets "diverted" (stolen in the chain or after sale, straw purchase, etc.).... From Fox News:

"An official with the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Explosives (ATF) – the federal agency under the Department of Justice (DOJ) tasked with tracking and recovering trafficked weapons – told Fox News that “guns enter illegal commerce through one of three ways.”

The first is by private transactions in which guns bought at gun shows, flea markets or through private sales are later sold to prohibited persons.

The second, the official underscored, was by straw purchasers – individuals who buy guns from dealers and transfer them to prohibited persons.

The third category is theft from gun dealers and private citizens. Gun traffickers transfer guns from legal commerce to illegal commerce and are “considered to be violent criminals,” the official said."

All three started as guns legally entering the supply chain!

But another interesting bit from Fox:

“Statistics show that those individuals committing ‘mass killings’ during ‘active shooter’ events do so utilizing weapons that have been obtained legally by themselves or a friend or family member,” observed Charles Marino, CEO of Sentinel Security Solutions. “Statistics show that those individuals committing what is known as ‘street crimes’ are typically doing so by utilizing weapons that have been initially stolen and may have further traded hands in the black market.”

The exceptions of course are homemade guns, 3D printed guns and potentially guns from the third world. From the Fox news I guess kit guns as well. All of these are still pretty small potatoes.

Is that good enough or do you still need more "proof"?

Please post your data on guns going black market direct from first world factories....

Those are all good points with respect to how legal guns become illegal guns in the US. I have never seen any supporting data that anything similar to 1 and 2 happens with the canadian supply of legal guns.

Some get stolen and that is a good point to target. I think our storage laws blow and would have no problem with those changing to require a proper rated storage container (which wouldn't affect many gun owners as they already have one). This doesn't need to be a list of specific firearms, just all. Lock them up in a strong metal box. No wooden gun cases, no racks on the wall etc. If you want to put it on the wall, decommission it first so it can never be fired.

I haven't heard of a criminal in canada that was found to have a gun bought from a legal canadian gun owner or straw purchased by a canadian.

 

[Evoex]

Inside the Black Market for Guns

Across a conference room table on the 35th floor of a Manhattan high rise were three agents with decades of experience investigating gunrunning and other crimes for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). One of the many questions I wanted to answer in my book The Future [...]

www.forbes.com

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

How dangerous people get their guns in America

While mass shootings like Las Vegas make headlines, gun violence in some neighborhoods is almost routine. Where do the guns come from?

www.cbsnews.com

Where do criminals really get their guns?

On average, just under 40,000 people each year die across the country in a gun-related death. So where do criminals typically buy their guns? And do most criminals seek out their weapons of choice through means, not above board?

www.foxnews.com

Even Fox news breaks it down with their twist. They enter the supply chain as legal guns, no one is buying black market factory direct. Plus the gun makers all are very clear they do not sell into the black market (although they could be lying, I will give you that). DOJ, FBI and ATF are as full of it as I am I guess.

Back to what I was saying, they leave the first world factory as legal guns legally into a supply chain then the legal gun gets "diverted" (stolen in the chain or after sale, straw purchase, etc.).... From Fox News:

"An official with the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Explosives (ATF) – the federal agency under the Department of Justice (DOJ) tasked with tracking and recovering trafficked weapons – told Fox News that “guns enter illegal commerce through one of three ways.”

The first is by private transactions in which guns bought at gun shows, flea markets or through private sales are later sold to prohibited persons.

The second, the official underscored, was by straw purchasers – individuals who buy guns from dealers and transfer them to prohibited persons.

The third category is theft from gun dealers and private citizens. Gun traffickers transfer guns from legal commerce to illegal commerce and are “considered to be violent criminals,” the official said."

All three started as guns legally entering the supply chain!

But another interesting bit from Fox:

“Statistics show that those individuals committing ‘mass killings’ during ‘active shooter’ events do so utilizing weapons that have been obtained legally by themselves or a friend or family member,” observed Charles Marino, CEO of Sentinel Security Solutions. “Statistics show that those individuals committing what is known as ‘street crimes’ are typically doing so by utilizing weapons that have been initially stolen and may have further traded hands in the black market.”

The exceptions of course are homemade guns, 3D printed guns and potentially guns from the third world. From the Fox news I guess kit guns as well. All of these are still pretty small potatoes.

Is that good enough or do you still need more "proof"?

Please post your data on guns going black market direct from first world factories....

Sure I'm at the office on my phone, ill review when I get home.

Why the change of heart? Could have just done this in your first response.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Those are all good points with respect to how legal guns become illegal guns in the US. I have never seen any supporting data that anything similar to 1 and 2 happens with the canadian supply of legal guns.

Some get stolen and that is a good point to target. I think our storage laws blow and would have no problem with those changing to require a proper rated storage container (which wouldn't affect many gun owners as they already have one). I haven't heard of a criminal in canada that was found to have a gun bought from a legal canadian gun owner or straw purchased by a canadian.

Most stats I have seen (I am sure someone here will demand "proof" now even though they provide none, lol) show that black market guns here are mostly from the US. That is where points 1 and/or 2 (and 3) take place, they are just diverted (smuggled) here instead of NY, Chicago....

It is a total whitewash to just label bad guy guns as "illegal", it implies they were made for the black market directly, as I said they entered the supply chain in the first world country of origin as 100% legal guns. They were legal somewhere somehow before becoming illegal. It is an international problem and we have it tough do to our "international locality."

 

[backmarkerducati]

Sure I'm at the office on my phone, ill review when I get home.

Why the change of heart? Could have just done this in your first response.

What change, you wanted proof illegal guns started as legal guns (somewhere somehow) and I provided that. The guns in Nova Scotia all fall into this category. The idea that first world gun makers are purposely selling directly to the black market is BS. These guns start out as legal....

Again, exceptions, home made, 3D printed....

I still say that this legislation is not one dimensional body count thing, nothing changed there either.

The ban is a start but goes no where near far enough, the first point above needs to be dealt with as well. Again, not just about banning a thing to simplistically reduce body counts, it is way deeper than that (on many dimensions). I agree it could be done better body count wise and should go further--but it is NOT one dimensional!

Good owners get lumped in with the bad types, no change there either.

Strawman arguments of banning RR bikes, sports cars, booze just show that the multidimensional aspect is not understood by those making the argument, and the "purpose of the banned thing" is not being considered, no change there.

?????