Correct. I only mentioned benefits because it was relevant to the compensation package. (WSIB premiums, training, PPE, etc. all adds up)
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JT's not the only one handing out free money...
- Thread starter mimico_polak
- Start date
Robots don't need benefits, sick days, discipline, management or any other item there. Just some maintenance, and energy. Which I'm sure saves a ton over the long term.
Super curious about your line of work so if you'd like please feel free to PM me as that sounds fascinating.
I can't even program the 'Hello World' page...so I'll stick with construction.
Plus all of the additional costs that don't show up in wages (Workers comp, CPP, supplies to do their job, etc)
Mad Mike
Well-known member
That's the way forward for a lot of companies. Automation is cheap compared to manual labor.
Automating one of our workstations costs $40K. The new machine works 3 shifts on a single load, so a $30K investment into automation saves $750/day in labor. The machine pays for itself in 40 days and keeps working for 10+ years for further savings of $150K/year in labor costs.
Labor shortages make things tough, I'm sure the issue is catalyzing a lot of decisions around automation these days.
Hmm..
You appear very one sided in your comments. I was trying to be more objective and say that during this game of cat and mouse the government and union(s) play, the losers are the parents and kids.
And businesses and the economy. Lots of people were unable to work while the strike was on. There is not sufficient childcare capacity to accomodate all the kids when school closes at short notice. Some friends resorted to shipping their kids off to grandparents as they had no better options. One set of grandparents was in windsor. The strike was called off at short notice but those kids wont be back for a while. Especially in the face of ongoing negotiations between two parties that give a rats ass about anything but their own self-interests, there is a very good chance they are out again.
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Mad Mike
Well-known member
I think you're missing the key point -- most CUPE education workers' current hourly wages are above the national averages for the jobs they do.
Ones current wage doesn't include a right to automatic increased "just because". CUPE must have exacted a substantial increase from another gov't -- if their wage premium has survived till this day. Is it fair for gov't to judge a fair wage off the average in the Canadian workforce?
I'm all for fair wages, but not for automatic PSU wage indexing. If the grass is greener...
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Province seems pretty stuck on two tier wage increase (higher percentage for lower income earners) but union has dug in their heels and says they will not accept any two-tier wage discussions. At first glance, tiers seems to be a reasonable way to balance living wage vs limited budget. I didn't like the way the tiers had a hard line in the first iteration as that can cause issues, the transition between two tiers should be a slope not a vertical line. Tiers really helps when they get to the teachers as the teachers will want the same percentage even though they make double or more money.
Since the union keeps harping about living wage, there is an interesting position the province can take with a substantial percentage increase down low tapering to a nominal increase as comp climbs. Union may stomp their feet but they couldn't keep pretending this is about poverty or a living wage when they rejected that offer.
What does he have to cut? Ontario is at a surplus even after having given everyone bribes of their license fees back. I AM partisan...at least I admit it. Ford is a douche. MPP's make above the average compensation for Ontario....EAs and ECE's make below average compensation. Do people forget that Ford took money away from special needs students? His new autism funding formula did something that no one else has successfully done....unite everyone in saying that it sucked.
I would assume by this that you of course think that Police and firefighters make too much correct? People are lining up for those jobs so i would assume that means that the market should reduce their pay with such a plumb job with above inflation wages year after year.
EA's and ECE are in high demand. there are not enough to go around and most ECEs work second jobs. Ontario should have the highest paid staff...we have the highest cost of living. ANd what private sector ECE or EAs are we comparing them too if the private sector makes less. You should be paying a premium to people you employ 10 months a year.
YES FFS YES. No one....especially the government should be paying full time employees below the cost of living. If you have to go on EI how plumb is that job? If anyone disagrees....just sign up to be an EA. I'm sure you could hack it. I know I couldn't. Stop sending us cheques in the mail and we'd be fine.
We aren't talking a little money here. The original Cupe position was far more than $100 per taxpayer in increased taxes. Every other union would want the same percentage. We are talking many thousands per year per taxpayer here.
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I just got back $900 for my stickers...and in the last year or so well more than $800 in Ford "improve your students programs." I am also going to get $200 per student to pay for tutors to "catch up" my kids. The government also sat on BILLIONS of transfers from the feds for covid that they didn't spend. If they had paid (all the governments not just the PC's) a reasonable amount for the last 10 years we wouldn't be here.
IF the union gets ALL that they are asking for (which they won't) that would be 3.5 billion per year:
:format(webp)/https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/politics/provincial/2022/08/26/school-staffing-and-wage-proposals-would-cost-much-less-than-ontario-government-estimates-union-says/rl_walton_02.jpg)
School staffing and wage proposals would cost much less than Ontario government estimates, union says
The province says if applied to all education workers, CUPE’s demands would come with a $21 billion price tag. The union says total closer to $11 billion
The ENTIRE education budget up to post secondary is $31 billion per year. So a 10% raise is $3 billion....assuming all teachers and principals get 10% too.
That is one year. They are negotiating for four years. Union is pushing for far far more than 10% over the contract.I just got back $900 for my stickers...and in the last year or so well more than $800 in Ford "improve your students programs." I am also going to get $200 per student to pay for tutors to "catch up" my kids. The government also sat on BILLIONS of transfers from the feds for covid that they didn't spend. If they had paid (all the governments not just the PC's) a reasonable amount for the last 10 years we wouldn't be here.
IF the union gets ALL that they are asking for (which they won't) that would be 3.5 billion per year:
School staffing and wage proposals would cost much less than Ontario government estimates, union says
The province says if applied to all education workers, CUPE’s demands would come with a $21 billion price tag. The union says total closer to $11 billionwww.thestar.com
The ENTIRE education budget up to post secondary is $31 billion per year. So a 10% raise is $3 billion....assuming all teachers and principals get 10% too.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
I do think they cost too much. I'm not particularly concerned about their salaries, they are trained and the jobs aren't particularly easy -- it's more the number of personnel it takes to get the job done and the number of hours in a work week and the fact they almost all retire at 30 years of service with full pensions (most firefighters and police draw full pensions for as long as they worked for the force).
EAs and ECE workers chose their professions, their compensation is no secret -- the average wage across Canada is $20/hr.
As for 10 month employees, remember they collect another $4500-$7000 in UI benefits if they choose not to seek summer employment. CUPE forgot to add those amounts into their "$39,000".
Don't misread my perspective on this, I'm all for fair wages and I don't begrudge the generous benefits and pensions that public sector employees collect. What I'm not for is providing substantial pay advantages to public sector employees over the Canadian pay scale averages for any given profession.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
I managed my personal finances pretty well this year and have a surplus in my bank account -- Hurray!
Should I be required to donate that to CUPE?
In my offensive opinion...
I detest civil servants in general, considering most of them overpaid, under worked, over protected and over privileged.
The same goes for most union workers.
I totally 100% support COLA increases but raises to a fully trained person should be limited to COLA. If you want to make more, work more, think more. When an advertising agency tells you "You deserve a break today" does that automatically trigger a raise because you are special? Ditto your need for the BMW, spa, hot tub.
What happens when a civil servant bucks the system? Read up on what the system does to the victims of assault in the system. The government picks up the tab for the defense and the victim loses their house to pay for their own council. Five years later they are shunned out of the system, broken. The perpetrator gets a promotion.
The Supreme Court refuses to handle cases where there is a collective agreement. That makes me wonder if it's because of the number of potential cases within the government and the outcome if a precedent was set.
Think about it. Missy gets a well paying government job and then gets low level sexual attacks. If she fights she loses her job or chance of promotions. How many accept the sexual advances because they can't / don't want to lower their standard of living. How is that unlike low level prostitution?
Our military has admitted that they can't cope with assaults within their ranks and want to dump the problem on the civil courts. The outfit that guards our shores can't guard themselves.
ifiddles makes a good point about difficulties in classrooms. I went to school with peanut butter sandwiches that would get me thrown out of class today. A buddy commented that this is the first year his 9 year old is in a class where no one is carrying an EpiPen.
Family problems, ESL, dyslexia, ADHD, autism etc. People used to resolve those things themselves, sometimes unfairly. Now the government is responsible. What about drug or alcohol fetal syndromes? Who gets the tab for fixing the problem? Who caused the problem? What do we do?
Answer: Elect an incompetent government that dumps the load on a bunch of underlings that would quit in mass if it was the private sector.
Real answer: Teach critical thinking to counter the brain washing foisted on us by Wall Street.
EA's are seasonal workers just like crop farmers. What do the farmers do when they're not bringing in the crop at the end of season? Answer: They're planting new crops, plowing new fields, not taking vacations.
There is an argument for or against every post on the topic, including mine, but it's pretty much undeniable that the 2% at the top are getting richer and the 2% at the bottom are getting poorer. The 96% in between are getting drawn and quartered.
Rant over for the moment, God called and I put him on hold a half hour ago.
I detest civil servants in general, considering most of them overpaid, under worked, over protected and over privileged.
The same goes for most union workers.
I totally 100% support COLA increases but raises to a fully trained person should be limited to COLA. If you want to make more, work more, think more. When an advertising agency tells you "You deserve a break today" does that automatically trigger a raise because you are special? Ditto your need for the BMW, spa, hot tub.
What happens when a civil servant bucks the system? Read up on what the system does to the victims of assault in the system. The government picks up the tab for the defense and the victim loses their house to pay for their own council. Five years later they are shunned out of the system, broken. The perpetrator gets a promotion.
The Supreme Court refuses to handle cases where there is a collective agreement. That makes me wonder if it's because of the number of potential cases within the government and the outcome if a precedent was set.
Think about it. Missy gets a well paying government job and then gets low level sexual attacks. If she fights she loses her job or chance of promotions. How many accept the sexual advances because they can't / don't want to lower their standard of living. How is that unlike low level prostitution?
Our military has admitted that they can't cope with assaults within their ranks and want to dump the problem on the civil courts. The outfit that guards our shores can't guard themselves.
ifiddles makes a good point about difficulties in classrooms. I went to school with peanut butter sandwiches that would get me thrown out of class today. A buddy commented that this is the first year his 9 year old is in a class where no one is carrying an EpiPen.
Family problems, ESL, dyslexia, ADHD, autism etc. People used to resolve those things themselves, sometimes unfairly. Now the government is responsible. What about drug or alcohol fetal syndromes? Who gets the tab for fixing the problem? Who caused the problem? What do we do?
Answer: Elect an incompetent government that dumps the load on a bunch of underlings that would quit in mass if it was the private sector.
Real answer: Teach critical thinking to counter the brain washing foisted on us by Wall Street.
EA's are seasonal workers just like crop farmers. What do the farmers do when they're not bringing in the crop at the end of season? Answer: They're planting new crops, plowing new fields, not taking vacations.
There is an argument for or against every post on the topic, including mine, but it's pretty much undeniable that the 2% at the top are getting richer and the 2% at the bottom are getting poorer. The 96% in between are getting drawn and quartered.
Rant over for the moment, God called and I put him on hold a half hour ago.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
I love a good rant!
As a civil servant...I take offence to this. I work my *** off and have never worked this hard in the private sector as I currently do...and for less money!
But since I like you and you've been great in person, I'll let it slide
Well he did say most.As a civil servant...I take offence to this. I work my *** off and have never worked this hard in the private sector as I currently do...and for less money!
But since I like you and you've been great in person, I'll let it slide
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