JT's not the only one handing out free money...

[ifiddles]

@Evoex your mom is an exceptional woman...today I get, "oh he's just a busy boy" or "no, there's nothing wrong, he's just being a boy" or "I'm not medicating my kid"...

the way I look at it, medication is a short term solution that allows the child (especially a younger child) to mature and gather the skills and strategies needed to self-regulate...eventually they have learned those coping mechanisms and can be weaned off the meds...however, in the meantime, the meds allow them to learn and function in a socially acceptable way with their peers...

 

[ifiddles]

@Evoex so if 7% for an MPP is acceptable, why isn't it acceptable for a member of CUPE?...why shouldn't they be granted something more than a measly 2%?...since 2012, CUPE has had an 8.5% raise, so basically less than 1% per year...

 

[Evoex]

@Evoex your mom is an exceptional woman...today I get, "oh he's just a busy boy" or "no, there's nothing wrong, he's just being a boy" or "I'm not medicating my kid"...

the way I look at it, medication is a short term solution that allows the child (especially a younger child) to mature and gather the skills and strategies needed to self-regulate...eventually they have learned those coping mechanisms and can be weaned off the meds...however, in the meantime, the meds allow them to learn and function in a socially acceptable way with their peers...

True.

When I occasionally ‘forgot’ to take my “smart pill’ as my parents liked to call it; she’d show up at school and drag me out of class to see the nurse and get my dose.

Le sigh. Society of snowflakes is right.

 

[Evoex]

@Evoex so if 7% for an MPP is acceptable, why isn't it acceptable for a member of CUPE?...why shouldn't they be granted something more than a measly 2%?...since 2012, CUPE has had an 8.5% raise, so basically less than 1% per year...

I never said It wasn’t.

The negotiations are part of the process, I don’t think it’s wrong for the union to go high and get talked down.

What is unreasonable (if the reporting is accurate) is when you (the union) come in high, and plan to strike in advance of any real conversations about a compromise.

Both sides use the parents and students as a tool to get empathy and support, but they’re the only losers here.

 

[ifiddles]

@Evoex but the unions have been ready to negotiate since June right after the election...in fact, they went to mediation and the mediator is the one that sent both parties home last week because negotiations were breaking down...in fact, the government left the union sitting at the table for hours waiting and didn't even bother to show up on some days (which they did before when teachers were negotiating a few years ago)...

and you just confirmed why Bill 28 and the NWC was not the right way to go about this...negotiations are part of the process and this is what DoFo was trying to take away...hence the reason why so many unions (I counted at least 20 in the list mentioned at the beginning of the CUPE press conference) were supporting CUPE - because DoFo with the new bill was trying to take away one of the most fundamental rights of a union...that of fair bargaining...

anyways, I'm going to watch YouTube with hubby seeing as he just got home...

 

[Mad Mike]

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the level of pay increase that the union is asking for...however to give yourself and all your MPPs a $16,000 raise along with a 20% increase to your housing allowance and only offering them a measly 2% is atrocious...

There's also another union who recently signed their agreement (SEIU or something like that- healthcare workers) and they too got shafted with a 1% increase ..no wonder everyone is quitting the healthcare industry...

Ford doesn't give a rat's %$# about healthcare or education

I'm not sure I see a correlation between union and public service officials pay. I'm guessing most of the leadership group finds doing public service less lucrative than running a company, doctoring or lawyering -- high paying professions. I guess that doesn't stand for all, ther may be the odd enemployed drama teacher who gets elected.

The masses in PSUs rarely find themselves at the low end of pay scales. The Canadian govt job bank website lists median pay for most occupations in Canada. Try comparing it to a CBA sometime.

 

[Evoex]

@Evoex but the unions have been ready to negotiate since June right after the election...in fact, they went to mediation and the mediator is the one that sent both parties home last week because negotiations were breaking down...in fact, the government left the union sitting at the table for hours waiting and didn't even bother to show up on some days (which they did before when teachers were negotiating a few years ago)...

and you just confirmed why Bill 28 and the NWC was not the right way to go about this...negotiations are part of the process and this is what DoFo was trying to take away...hence the reason why so many unions (I counted at least 20 in the list mentioned at the beginning of the CUPE press conference) were supporting CUPE - because DoFo with the new bill was trying to take away one of the most fundamental rights of a union...that of fair bargaining...

anyways, I'm going to watch YouTube with hubby seeing as he just got home...

Again (if reporting is to be believed) the union was striking and not at the table. That’s why the bill was introduced.

And of course the rest of the unions would come out in support, it’s in their best interest to do so.

Enjoy the YouTube.

 

[ifiddles]

The union applied for a no-board, which is part of the process, especially when the two sides are not anywhere close to an agreement...mediation then takes place and after 17 days that the no-board is granted, the union is in a legal strike position...that date was November 3...before they can actually strike, they have to give 5 days notice, which CUPE did on October 30...it was October 27 or 28 that the mediator sent everyone home...DoFo knew this timeline and he rushed Bill 28 through in a few days (conveniently now, the MPPs are not in session so the reversal of the bill has to wait until next week)...

 

[Evoex]

The union applied for a no-board, which is part of the process, especially when the two sides are not anywhere close to an agreement...mediation then takes place and after 17 days that the no-board is granted, the union is in a legal strike position...that date was November 3...before they can actually strike, they have to give 5 days notice, which CUPE did on October 30...it was October 27 or 28 that the mediator sent everyone home...DoFo knew this timeline and he rushed Bill 28 through in a few days (conveniently now, the MPPs are not in session so the reversal of the bill has to wait until next week)...

One point I forgot to make, bill 28 did not infringe on bargaining rights, it attacked the strike. Which is not protected by the Charter, as far as I know.

The Supreme Court has made many rulings in favour of bargaining rights, which is great for the union but ties the hand of the government. One could probably argue whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing but again, the losers here are parents and children. Imo

 

[ifiddles]

actually section 2(d) does protect the right to strike...it became a charter protected right in 2015...and yes, I agree that it affects parents and kids...sometimes you have to cause inconvenience in order to prove a point/get what you want (or something close to what you want)...

 

[Evoex]

actually section 2(d) does protect the right to strike...it became a charter protected right in 2015...and yes, I agree that it affects parents and kids...sometimes you have to cause inconvenience in order to prove a point/get what you want (or something close to what you want)...

I stand corrected. I guess that makes sense to use the clause. Something is tugging at my memory though, I’ll have to look into this a bit more.

 

[800over]

I never said It wasn’t.

The negotiations are part of the process, I don’t think it’s wrong for the union to go high and get talked down.

What is unreasonable (if the reporting is accurate) is when you (the union) come in high, and plan to strike in advance of any real conversations about a compromise.

Both sides use the parents and students as a tool to get empathy and support, but they’re the only losers here.

What are you talking about? The workers lose too. Working for less than they should be. The government offered them raises of 1.5% before they announced their strike. The government left the table at that number. SO they exercised their constitutional rights. Your rights do not get taken away because other people are inconvenienced by it. These CUPE workers were praised up an down when they had to be front line workers during covid. And what do they get? Nothing. Just a smaller and smaller paycheck. If you think it is the union that is causing the stalemate look at the new offer that the government thinks is significant while negotiating in the media. The government was so un interested in negotiating they used the notwithstanding clause....which they had ready before the announcement of the strike that was coming.
To reiterate. There was no negotiating. The government said 1.5/2.5 or suck it. The only chip the union has is a strike. What other choice did they have? Am I missing anything?

 

[Mad Mike]

What are you talking about? The workers lose too. Working for less than they should be. The government offered them raises of 1.5% before they announced their strike. The government left the table at that number. SO they exercised their constitutional rights. Your rights do not get taken away because other people are inconvenienced by it. These CUPE workers were praised up an down when they had to be front line workers during covid. And what do they get? Nothing. Just a smaller and smaller paycheck. If you think it is the union that is causing the stalemate look at the new offer that the government thinks is significant while negotiating in the media. The government was so un interested in negotiating they used the notwithstanding clause....which they had ready before the announcement of the strike that was coming.
To reiterate. There was no negotiating. The government said 1.5/2.5 or suck it. The only chip the union has is a strike. What other choice did they have? Am I missing anything?

The central issue is wages. Considering wages are generally higher than the Canadian average, how does a govt protect the people against being held hostage to wage demands?

I checked all the normal recruiting sites, there are no significant recruiting efforts or job postings for CUPE positions in schools. This would indicate to me that those jobs dont seem to be difficult to fill in a tight job market.

My view is there is no 'right to a raise' in the Charter. Asking for 10% annual wage increases for a labor pool that is already paid above the Canadian average doesn't seem right to me.

Maybe answer this? If a workforce pays all has overshot market compensation, how should politicians protect the public purse?

 

[ifiddles]

I just did a search on Google for average Canadian salary and got anywhere from $43,000 to $72,000 depending on the source...so is $39,000 a suitable wage?...in some circles sure...

However, that doesn't negate the inherent right of the union to fair and equitable bargaining...like @800over said, DoFo already had this bill planned in advance and had no plans on coming to the table with an open mind...

As for recruiting sites not showing jobs, that's because there's a specific job bank for educators that school boards use...most of these positions don't get posted on places like indeed, zip recruiter etc....that doesn't mean the vacancies don't exist (and trust me I know, vacancies exist because we have unfilled jobs daily - both for teaching and support staff)...

 

[GreyGhost]

I just did a search on Google for average Canadian salary and got anywhere from $43,000 to $72,000 depending on the source...so is $39,000 a suitable wage?...in some circles sure...

However, that doesn't negate the inherent right of the union to fair and equitable bargaining...like @800over said, DoFo already had this bill planned in advance and had no plans on coming to the table with an open mind...

As for recruiting sites not showing jobs, that's because there's a specific job bank for educators that school boards use...most of these positions don't get posted on places like indeed, zip recruiter etc....that doesn't mean the vacancies don't exist (and trust me I know, vacancies exist because we have unfilled jobs daily - both for teaching and support staff)...

You need median not average. Average is heavily swayed by a relatively few high comp jobs.

 

[mimico_polak]

You need median not average. Average is heavily swayed by a relatively few high comp jobs.

This is what I'm curious about, where does the $39,000 average annual salary come in? Judging by the table posted earlier by @Mad Mike it seemed like the majority of positions are higher paying than the 39k that keeps being quoted.

Where did that number come from? Is it that there are so many sub-39k that there are relatively few higher paying jobs to even it out? It seems pretty sketchy to use that number only.

On the same note, where does the 50% raise come in? Is it just mucking around with numbers to make it look unreasonable? Or is it 12%/year (which to me is ridiculously large to ask but maybe I'm conditioned to expect 2-5%).

I mean without sounding like an ***...but how much should we be paying for a (for instance) janitor? I'm sure if you ask DOFO it's 20k, and if you ask the janitor it should be 100k.

Everyone wants more, hell so do I, but unfortunately the market dictates this. And assuming the table is true, and they are getting paid above market rate (hourly not annual as pointed out), and you add in the benefits, and the perks, then really...it just starts looking like nothing more than a 'gimme gimme gimme'.

Hell, I'd be happy with a 2% raise if I could get it...but gov't work is very tight on raises. To the point of embarrassing.

 

[Mad Mike]

I just did a search on Google for average Canadian salary and got anywhere from $43,000 to $72,000 depending on the source...so is $39,000 a suitable wage?...in some circles sure...

However, that doesn't negate the inherent right of the union to fair and equitable bargaining...like @800over said, DoFo already had this bill planned in advance and had no plans on coming to the table with an open mind...

As for recruiting sites not showing jobs, that's because there's a specific job bank for educators that school boards use...most of these positions don't get posted on places like indeed, zip recruiter etc....that doesn't mean the vacancies don't exist (and trust me I know, vacancies exist because we have unfilled jobs daily - both for teaching and support staff)...

That's a pretty wide net you're casting, when comparing wages you should look at the individual segment of the market to get an apples-to-apples comparison. Using your logic, should teachers be 120% above the average $43K?

Now on the $39,000. If you dig into that number you'll find schools require lots of casual and seasonal workers, CUPE includes them in the 'average' to bring the overall number down. If you did the same math for a large retail store, you'd probably see annual earnings of $20,000 or less. Also, remember CUPE fails to include $4500-$7000 in their averages -- the annual UI payments collected by a large number of 10 month workers.

At the end of the day, taxpayers cover these costs. The question remains the same - should taxpayers have to foot the premiums over industry-standard compensation?

 

[GreyGhost]

On the same note, where does the 50% raise come in? Is it just mucking around with numbers to make it look unreasonable? Or is it 12%/year (which to me is ridiculously large to ask but maybe I'm conditioned to expect 2-5%).

CUPE initial bargaining position was 11.7%/year. That compounds so after 4 years, you are up 55.7% from the initial salary. They also wanted an additional 30 minutes a day of paid time (how many hours are paid now? 7? effectively another 7% one time raise but that is year one so the salary raises future years also compound on that).

 

[woot]

CUPE initial bargaining position was 11.7%/year. That compounds so after 4 years, you are up 55.7% from the initial salary. They also wanted an additional 30 minutes a day of paid time (how many hours are paid now? 7? effectively another 7% one time raise but that is year one so the salary raises future years also compound on that).

I believe that the 50% number was including benefits etc.

I replace people with robots for work and get to budget about $75,000 in savings for each person that I eliminate, though the workers wages are less then $50,000

 

[timtune]

I believe that the 50% number was including benefits etc.

I replace people with robots for work and get to budget about $75,000 in savings for each person that I eliminate, though the workers wages are less then $50,000

When you replace someone you save more than just their wage though. All those above that had a hand in managing that person save time/$.