JT's not the only one handing out free money...

[Mad Mike]

I thought dofo blinked when he repealed the invocation of the notwithstanding clause.

Notwith standing clause - Only in Canada could we come up with that. "Here are the rules. And this is the rule that let's you break the other rules"

I think the NWC is a good thing, it provides an out for provincial gov'ts when the federal rulebook conflicts with regional interests.

Up until 2015 the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Charter’s freedom of association where unionized employees were concerned, said freedom of association was limited to a right to form and maintain a union, and the right to strike was not protected under the constitution. While the right to strike was never included in the constitution, it was conferred in 2015 as a 'hey... times change' liberal Supreme Court ruling when they somehow reasoned the charter right to association also included the right to strike. Kind of a non-legislative invention by a partisan court?

Oddly in Canada, the Supreme Court can alter the constitution but the legislature cannot. That makes the NWC critically important as it protects provinces and territories by offering legislative ying to the Supreme Court's yang.

 

[Evoex]

I think the NWC is a good thing, it provides an out for provincial gov'ts when the federal rulebook conflicts with regional interests.

Up until 2015 the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Charter’s freedom of association where unionized employees were concerned, said freedom of association was limited to a right to form and maintain a union, and the right to strike was not protected under the constitution. While the right to strike was never included in the constitution, it was conferred in 2015 as a 'hey... times change' liberal Supreme Court ruling when they somehow reasoned the charter right to association also included the right to strike. Kind of a non-legislative invention by a partisan court?

Oddly in Canada, the Supreme Court can alter the constitution but the legislature cannot. That makes the NWC critically important as it protects provinces and territories by offering legislative ying to the Supreme Court's yang.

Good point, i reread the ruling after talking with @ifiddles and while i support the courts right & responsibility to interpret law (which mostly can be very vague to start with) that ruling seems way out of 'left' field. How they discerned the right to assemble and protest your government actions (or inaction) is the same as the right to walk off the job and strike kinda boggles the mind.

 

[GreyGhost]

Here's an interesting quote from CUPE president. Can anyone else decode this in a way that makes sense?

I think she went to the JT school of math. Flat percentage increase allows those with lower income to move up faster relative to those with higher income?

Ontario government, CUPE still 'far apart' at the bargaining table

The union representing education workers across the province says they are still 'far apart' from reaching a new contract at the bargaining table with the Ontario government.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

Laura Walton, president of the Canadian Union of Public Employees' (CUPE) Ontario School Board Council of Unions

“What will actually work is a flat rate increase, because a flat rate increase is going to allow those with lower income to actually move up quicker than those with the higher income, and it actually deals with the disparity and the inequity in a way that isn't intended to divide and conquer.”

EDIT:
Is she looking for numerically flat instead of a percentage? An extra $x,xxx per year per employee? I don't know if I've ever seen that done. It is an interesting way to achieve a variable percentage increase that is higher for lower paid workers and cost of the plan would be trivially easy to calculate.

 

[Mad Mike]

Good point, i reread the ruling after talking with @ifiddles and while i support the courts right & responsibility to interpret law (which mostly can be very vague to start with) that ruling seems way out of 'left' field. How they discerned the right to assemble and protest your government actions (or inaction) is the same as the right to walk off the job and strike kinda boggles the mind.

This ruling was largely pandering.

My beef with SCC is the fact they can make or change laws as unelected officials in a democracy.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Here's an interesting quote from CUPE president. Can anyone else decode this in a way that makes sense?

I think she went to the JT school of math. Flat percentage increase allows those with lower income to move up faster relative to those with higher income?

Ontario government, CUPE still 'far apart' at the bargaining table

The union representing education workers across the province says they are still 'far apart' from reaching a new contract at the bargaining table with the Ontario government.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

Laura Walton, president of the Canadian Union of Public Employees' (CUPE) Ontario School Board Council of Unions

“What will actually work is a flat rate increase, because a flat rate increase is going to allow those with lower income to actually move up quicker than those with the higher income, and it actually deals with the disparity and the inequity in a way that isn't intended to divide and conquer.”

EDIT:
Is she looking for numerically flat instead of a percentage? An extra $x,xxx per year per employee? I don't know if I've ever seen that done. It is an interesting way to achieve a variable percentage increase that is higher for lower paid workers and cost of the plan would be trivially easy to calculate.

My understanding is they want a flat increase in $s not a percentage. Good or bad, their logic is a percentage increase means people making more today get more $s than someone making less.... instead everyone gets the same $s and the more you make the lower the percentage increase.

If it was 10% (just as example, not the actual number AFAIK) a person making 35K gets a $3.5K increase while the person making $60K gets a $6K increase.

If it was instead $5K flat (again just an example) then the person making $35K gets $5K (~14%) more and the person making $60K gets $5K (~8%) more. In this case, flat, the more you make today, technically the lower the percentage increase.

 

[Mad Mike]

I

My understanding is they want a flat increase in $s not a percentage. Good or bad, their logic is a percentage increase means people making more today get more $s than someone making less.... instead everyone gets the same $s and the more you make the lower the percentage increase.

If it was 10% (just as example, not the actual number AFAIK) a person making 35K gets a $3.5K increase while the person making $60K gets a $6K increase.

If it was instead $5K flat (again just an example) then the person making $35K gets $5K (~14%) more and the person making $60K gets $5K (~8%) more. In this case, flat, the more you make today, technically the lower the percentage increase.

like neither. I'd support a position that they 'deserve' 10% above the average Canada Job Bank hourly wage, and no change to their gold played benefits package.

I don't have anything against individual Education workers -- but I don't think they should have an entitlement to substantially better compensation than their private sector counterparts. I believe our elected officials should be responsible and use best practices to manage our public purse. I detest tax dollars going to pandering, buying votes, and friends of the regime.

 

[800over]

Sword cuts both ways. Use of the NWC also got them talking again, union agreed to end the strike if the government repealed the legislation.

Right says Doug a genius.

Left says he's a desperate moron who blinked.

/shrug

umm it obviously didn't work as the union was going to strike after it was passed. He had the NWC in his back pocket...now he doesn't and cannot use it again. Where are the people on the right saying he is a genius?

Or maybe you are not remembering the order of things:
Unions: We are going to strike if you don't come back to the table.
Gov: Oh then he is some legistation and the NWC to make you accept our terms and prevent the strike.
Unions: We are going to strike anyways
Gov: I guess we'll repeal the legislation and come back to bargaining with better terms

Is any of that disputable?

 

[Mad Mike]

umm it obviously didn't work as the union was going to strike after it was passed. He had the NWC in his back pocket...now he doesn't and cannot use it again. Where are the people on the right saying he is a genius?

Or maybe you are not remembering the order of things:
Unions: We are going to strike if you don't come back to the table.
Gov: Oh then he is some legistation and the NWC to make you accept our terms and prevent the strike.
Unions: We are going to strike anyways
Gov: I guess we'll repeal the legislation and come back to bargaining with better terms

Is any of that disputable?

order of things is disputable:
Unions: We are going to strike if you don't come back to the table.
Gov: Oh then here is some legislation and the NWC to make you accept our terms and prevent the strike. Keep kids in school. (Genius!)
Unions: We are going to strike anyways
Gov: I guess Call off the strike, come back to bargaining, THEN we'll repeal the legislation with better terms

 

[800over]

order of things is disputable:
Unions: We are going to strike if you don't come back to the table.
Gov: Oh then here is some legislation and the NWC to make you accept our terms and prevent the strike. Keep kids in school. (Genius!)
Unions: We are going to strike anyways
Gov: I guess Call off the strike, come back to bargaining, THEN we'll repeal the legislation with better terms

Feel free to back any of that up with evidence. There was no negotiating happening at all before the strike. The Gov said take it or leave it. They didn't keep the kids in school they lost a day. The strike was not averted until the Gov put in writing that they would repeal the legistlation. Now they have a better offer on the table. All of this is known.
Cupe can strike again....Ford cannot use the NWC again.

Ford says ‘improved offer’ given to CUPE for lowest paid education workers | Globalnews.ca

Premier Doug Ford says his government is back at the bargaining table on Tuesday with CUPE and has an "improved offer" for its lowest paid workers.

globalnews.ca

and if you don't think global's bona fides are enough here's the globe and mail.

Ontario education workers have a new contract. Here’s how CUPE and Doug Ford’s labour feud played out

An Ontario education union stood up to unprecedented anti-strike legislation, which the province withdrew. Now, workers have agreed to a new deal. Here’s what you need to know

www.theglobeandmail.com

The GLobe and mail article also shows how disingenuous Ford has been about "keeping kids in school" the guy closed schools more than any other Province (triple the number of days Quebec did for example). He can't whine about Keep the kids in school now. And if he's a Genius then why does 60% of the population think he is responsible for the situation.

Ontarians express support for CUPE as education workers' strike continues, poll finds

As rallies continued across Ontario in support of education workers, new polling data shows more than half of respondents blame the Ontario government for Friday's strike by the Canadian Union of Public Employees.

ottawa.ctvnews.ca

You should practice your crossing out of the facts.

 

[Mad Mike]

I

Feel free to back any of that up with evidence. There was no negotiating happening at all before the strike. The Gov said take it or leave it. They didn't keep the kids in school they lost a day. The strike was not averted until the Gov put in writing that they would repeal the legistlation. Now they have a better offer on the table. All of this is known.
Cupe can strike again....Ford cannot use the NWC again.

Ford says ‘improved offer’ given to CUPE for lowest paid education workers | Globalnews.ca

Premier Doug Ford says his government is back at the bargaining table on Tuesday with CUPE and has an "improved offer" for its lowest paid workers.

globalnews.ca

and if you don't think global's bona fides are enough here's the globe and mail.

Ontario education workers have a new contract. Here’s how CUPE and Doug Ford’s labour feud played out

An Ontario education union stood up to unprecedented anti-strike legislation, which the province withdrew. Now, workers have agreed to a new deal. Here’s what you need to know

www.theglobeandmail.com

The GLobe and mail article also shows how disingenuous Ford has been about "keeping kids in school" the guy closed schools more than any other Province (triple the number of days Quebec did for example). He can't whine about Keep the kids in school now. And if he's a Genius then why does 60% of the population think he is responsible for the situation.

Ontarians express support for CUPE as education workers' strike continues, poll finds

As rallies continued across Ontario in support of education workers, new polling data shows more than half of respondents blame the Ontario government for Friday's strike by the Canadian Union of Public Employees.

ottawa.ctvnews.ca

You should practice your crossing out of the facts.

C'mon man.

You're quoting The Globe, Global & Abacus? Sprinkling a few thoughts from John Fraser and Justin Trudeau would make it more credible.

 

[Evoex]

Feel free to back any of that up with evidence. There was no negotiating happening at all before the strike.

didn't @ifiddles discuss the fact that there was in fact negotiations not one page ago?

So whose not telling the truth?

I'll wait.

 

[ifiddles]

yes, there was negotiating going on...trouble is, dates are few and far between...we received a list of dates from my union and in my opinion, they are so spread out that it's no wonder they don't get anything accomplished...it's a total farce if you ask me...what I think needs to happen is they two sides site down, every day, for as long as it takes to hash out a new contract/agreement, not this one day here, another next week, a few more in a few weeks mumbo jumbo that they currently do...and I agree, contracts shouldn't end on August 31, they should end on the last day of school...and if you want to keep the end dates to August 31, then both parties should have to start negotiations in the summer...just my two cents worth...

 

[GreyGhost]

yes, there was negotiating going on...trouble is, dates are few and far between...we received a list of dates from my union and in my opinion, they are so spread out that it's no wonder they don't get anything accomplished...it's a total farce if you ask me...what I think needs to happen is they two sides site down, every day, for as long as it takes to hash out a new contract/agreement, not this one day here, another next week, a few more in a few weeks mumbo jumbo that they currently do...and I agree, contracts shouldn't end on August 31, they should end on the last day of school...and if you want to keep the end dates to August 31, then both parties should have to start negotiations in the summer...just my two cents worth...

Back to my hot potato plan. You get x days to reply with a meaningful change or it gets expensive. Keeps the process moving and ensures the wankers on both sides don't just take off for the summer.

 

[Baggsy]

Back to my hot potato plan. You get x days to reply with a meaningful change or it gets expensive. Keeps the process moving and ensures the wankers on both sides don't just take off for the summer.

If you have someone who truly knows what "meaningful" is, then you'd be better off having them pull an arbitrary number out of their glass.

 

[GreyGhost]

If you have someone who truly knows what "meaningful" is, then you'd be better off having them pull an arbitrary number out of their glass.

Define it in the program. Something like at least a 10% move towards the other parties position on at least one issue.

 

[Baggsy]

Define it in the program. Something like at least a 10% move towards the other parties position on at least one issue.

Who picks the two parties starting positions? Once you have them, pick the point exactly halfway between them.

 

[GreyGhost]

Who picks the two parties starting positions? Once you have them, pick the point exactly halfway between them.

Each party picks their starting point. Not every issue would land at 50%. If one side prioritized salary and the other side prioritized job security you could end up with minimal salary increase but much stronger job security for instance.

 

[wonderings]

Feel free to back any of that up with evidence. There was no negotiating happening at all before the strike. The Gov said take it or leave it. They didn't keep the kids in school they lost a day. The strike was not averted until the Gov put in writing that they would repeal the legistlation. Now they have a better offer on the table. All of this is known.
Cupe can strike again....Ford cannot use the NWC again.

Ford says ‘improved offer’ given to CUPE for lowest paid education workers | Globalnews.ca

Premier Doug Ford says his government is back at the bargaining table on Tuesday with CUPE and has an "improved offer" for its lowest paid workers.

globalnews.ca

and if you don't think global's bona fides are enough here's the globe and mail.

Ontario education workers have a new contract. Here’s how CUPE and Doug Ford’s labour feud played out

An Ontario education union stood up to unprecedented anti-strike legislation, which the province withdrew. Now, workers have agreed to a new deal. Here’s what you need to know

www.theglobeandmail.com

The GLobe and mail article also shows how disingenuous Ford has been about "keeping kids in school" the guy closed schools more than any other Province (triple the number of days Quebec did for example). He can't whine about Keep the kids in school now. And if he's a Genius then why does 60% of the population think he is responsible for the situation.

Ontarians express support for CUPE as education workers' strike continues, poll finds

As rallies continued across Ontario in support of education workers, new polling data shows more than half of respondents blame the Ontario government for Friday's strike by the Canadian Union of Public Employees.

ottawa.ctvnews.ca

You should practice your crossing out of the facts.

I could be wrong on this, but was not CUPE pretty adamant about their initial demand? I remember hearing on some talk radio that at the starting point they refused to accept anything but the outrageously high demand they had which then set thing spiralling towards strike territory.

 

[GreyGhost]

I could be wrong on this, but was not CUPE pretty adamant about their initial demand? I remember hearing on some talk radio that at the starting point they refused to accept anything but the outrageously high demand they had which then set thing spiralling towards strike territory.

Apparently both sides were dug in and refusing to move from initial position.

 

[wonderings]

Apparently both sides were dug in and refusing to move from initial position.

Not a good way to negotiate for sure. Did the government have a counter at that point or just refusing to even talk about the crazy ask in the beginning?