What support system is really needed?
Bought a cheap but reliable car.....sold all the toys....worked 60 hours a week.
I wonder how long this insanity will last....
- Thread starter mimico_polak
- Start date
What support system is really needed?
Bought a cheap but reliable car.....sold all the toys....worked 60 hours a week.
lator-illa
Well-known member
hahaha man...
You are clearly out of touch. Do you even bother to read and comprehend my posts?
When did I ever mention dropping out of school and having kids? What if the two parents already had DECENT SECURED jobs and were able to pay their bills with very little left over. It is not so far-fetched that one gets laid off due to outsourcing...I don't know about you but i've seen it happen way too many times.
What do you mean what support system is really needed?? Where were you living when you decided to this? How did you pay for mortgage/rent? Clearly your 60k income paid for things that weren't necessary when you could live off your min wage job.
My minimum wage job covered food and rent as well as the rest of my basics.
If one of those parents was laid off, and they were just getting by to begin with a drop down to $15 an hour for 6 months isn't exactly a stretch is it?
What other options do they really have? Did you actually think that through?
Alright, let's do a little math.
Let's take a basic trade with an easier entry point, like General Carpentry. The period in school is a straight cost, though as pointed out, you can get EI if you're already in a trade school, etc. etc. Being in school is not working, so while you won't have the huge loans of some university kid, it's still not a real income. If you have no connections at all, then maybe you'll do something like go to the SCAS (part of the TDSB) and take their pre-apprentice program. It doesn't really cost anything ($20, I think) and is 18 weeks. So assign whatever cost or not you want to going a third or a half the year without work.
After that, you move on to the Apprenticeship. In Ontario, carpentry Apprenticeships have 4 stages of 1800 hours each. With a different rate of pay for each period. After the completion all four terms of which you can qualify as a Journeyman and take your Red Seal exam if all goes well.
1800 hours comes out to about 48 weeks, assuming full-time employment with half-hour lunch breaks not counting towards your time. However construction work is not like office work and can often be more piecemeal, sometimes with overtime (unlikely for the low guy on the totem pole) or scrabbling for hours here and there (depends on how much work is available). But for the sake of argument, let's say you know a guy who gets you some steady full time work.
The Apprentice rates for each level are as follows.
First term: $17.75/h (Using Ontario deductions, that's a bi-Weekly NET paycheque of $1,074.15 and a GROSS annual salary of $34,612.50)
Second term: $21.49/h (NET bi-weekly $1,273.89, GROSS annual $41,905.50)
Third term: $25.21/h (NET bi-weekly $1,449.17, GROSS annual $49,159.50)
Fourth term: $30.64/h (NET bi-weekly $1,702.49, GROSS annual $59,748.00)
Once you're done, the posted Journeyman wage is: $36.12 (NET bi-weekly $1,957.40, GROSS annual $70,434)
I don't know what the deductions are for union dues. So, that's not a perfect calculation. I'm also not sure if the standard unpaid lunch deduction for an hour shift is an half hour or an hour. I've used a half hour (7.5 h work days).
So once you're done you're not doing too bad. $70k is respectable and having no student debt is a solid plus. But is it enough to buy a 500k house in this town without a second income or other help? Probably not even close. Certainly not if we're using traditional measures like "five times your annual income" - by that measure it's not even enough to buy a $400k house.
And again I'm calculating some mythical construction job where the Apprentice gets steady full-time work hours and goes straight from one tier to the next without scraping and begging to gain entry. I know plenty of ordinary carpenters who've floated in and out of work as projects come and go. If construction is booming, there'll be plenty of work to go around, even overtime. If there's a housing crash or other economic drop, construction workers are hit hardest, and pretty early on and cycles don't go more than a couple years either way. When work dries up, the younger or newer guys will get hit hardest and earliest. Trades are a union gig, so unless you're working off the radar as a "Handyman" (as many guys do for reduced rates) the new guy is out the door first. On the other hand, play it smart and make good connections and you can get in with an outfit where you'll stay employed. Even those "handymen" can do well, owning their own business if they do good work and cultivate an upscale group of clients.
Whatever happens, success will take a lot more than just sheer willpower.
Let's take a basic trade with an easier entry point, like General Carpentry. The period in school is a straight cost, though as pointed out, you can get EI if you're already in a trade school, etc. etc. Being in school is not working, so while you won't have the huge loans of some university kid, it's still not a real income. If you have no connections at all, then maybe you'll do something like go to the SCAS (part of the TDSB) and take their pre-apprentice program. It doesn't really cost anything ($20, I think) and is 18 weeks. So assign whatever cost or not you want to going a third or a half the year without work.
After that, you move on to the Apprenticeship. In Ontario, carpentry Apprenticeships have 4 stages of 1800 hours each. With a different rate of pay for each period. After the completion all four terms of which you can qualify as a Journeyman and take your Red Seal exam if all goes well.
1800 hours comes out to about 48 weeks, assuming full-time employment with half-hour lunch breaks not counting towards your time. However construction work is not like office work and can often be more piecemeal, sometimes with overtime (unlikely for the low guy on the totem pole) or scrabbling for hours here and there (depends on how much work is available). But for the sake of argument, let's say you know a guy who gets you some steady full time work.
The Apprentice rates for each level are as follows.
First term: $17.75/h (Using Ontario deductions, that's a bi-Weekly NET paycheque of $1,074.15 and a GROSS annual salary of $34,612.50)
Second term: $21.49/h (NET bi-weekly $1,273.89, GROSS annual $41,905.50)
Third term: $25.21/h (NET bi-weekly $1,449.17, GROSS annual $49,159.50)
Fourth term: $30.64/h (NET bi-weekly $1,702.49, GROSS annual $59,748.00)
Once you're done, the posted Journeyman wage is: $36.12 (NET bi-weekly $1,957.40, GROSS annual $70,434)
I don't know what the deductions are for union dues. So, that's not a perfect calculation. I'm also not sure if the standard unpaid lunch deduction for an hour shift is an half hour or an hour. I've used a half hour (7.5 h work days).
So once you're done you're not doing too bad. $70k is respectable and having no student debt is a solid plus. But is it enough to buy a 500k house in this town without a second income or other help? Probably not even close. Certainly not if we're using traditional measures like "five times your annual income" - by that measure it's not even enough to buy a $400k house.
And again I'm calculating some mythical construction job where the Apprentice gets steady full-time work hours and goes straight from one tier to the next without scraping and begging to gain entry. I know plenty of ordinary carpenters who've floated in and out of work as projects come and go. If construction is booming, there'll be plenty of work to go around, even overtime. If there's a housing crash or other economic drop, construction workers are hit hardest, and pretty early on and cycles don't go more than a couple years either way. When work dries up, the younger or newer guys will get hit hardest and earliest. Trades are a union gig, so unless you're working off the radar as a "Handyman" (as many guys do for reduced rates) the new guy is out the door first. On the other hand, play it smart and make good connections and you can get in with an outfit where you'll stay employed. Even those "handymen" can do well, owning their own business if they do good work and cultivate an upscale group of clients.
Whatever happens, success will take a lot more than just sheer willpower.
Last edited:
Or you can rack up 30k in tuition costs and get a job making 35k a year if your lucky.
BTW...I never once sat at home during my apprenticeship. Get in with a decent company and they will give the eager apprentice hours over the lazy, overpaid journeymen.
Even my mom takes courses working towards a degree. Its never too late.
BTW...I never once sat at home during my apprenticeship. Get in with a decent company and they will give the eager apprentice hours over the lazy, overpaid journeymen.
Even my mom takes courses working towards a degree. Its never too late.
My boss likes to include the % on every paycheck....*******.
lator-illa
Well-known member
But why limit this scenario to low income families? For the sake of argument, let's say each parent makes 60k which would be enough to cover a mortgage and all other bills plus kids. They have a mortgage which they can comfortably cover together(which some people go over their means as we've discussed in this thread). This would leave little for extra things...what happens when you take out one of those 60k from the equation?
How many people do you know living paycheque to paycheque? Are you going to tell them they're not living sensibly? lol
You mean they're happier to pay the guy who comes cheaper
It's a business, man. By the way what are the rates/hour tiers for Electrical apprenticeships? I haven't found those yet and I figured that'd be another good basic one to run the numbers on (though not for me, I'm terrible with electrical stuff, lol.).
You mean they're happier to pay the guy who comes cheaper
By the way what are the rates/hour tiers for Electrical apprenticeships? I haven't found those yet and I figured that'd be another good basic one to run the numbers on (though not for me, I'm terrible with electrical stuff, lol.).
1st term 40%
2nd 50%
3rd 60%
4th 70%
5th 80%
Of journeymen wage. Varies by company. But I would say absolute lowest $25 an hour which is too low for skilled labour. Union rate is $36 ish I think?
Its 1800 hours per term, 3 terms of school. 8 weeks for the first, 10 each for the other 2.
Yes...it is business. But they legally cant use "labours" so thats one good thing.
With a combined income of $120k living paycheque to paycheque isn't living sensibly.
BTW any job that you can lose to outsourcing....how can you consider that secure?
lator-illa
Well-known member
you'd be surprised at how many families live over their means...
not even outsourcing...but a company going under. A department considered redundant...cut backs...etc etc etc
You would be surprised how far off topic you have veered.
"get a better job"
as in:
-Find someone who will pay better for your skill set
-Go back to school to develop new skill and cert.'s note: doesnt always require leaving your current job.
-Change carriers. Could mean a temporary pay cut......but will likely be worth it in the end.
Plus, don't forget, 10% vacation pay. So we're looking at $39.60 ish I think.
lator-illa
Well-known member
if you go back to previous posts, the phrase "Make More Money" was thrown around as well. I was defending the fact that you simply can't just spew this to someone without knowing their full background and circumstances they're in. So no, I have not veered off.
Last edited:
Dresden
Well-known member
I want to agree with you wholeheartedly, but Toronto (as much as vancouver) is a playpen for the rich foreign to park their money.
Take a drive near Upper Canada College (uptown) and it will give you a good idea. I would guess 90% of the kids are here on a student visa (not cheap), and their parents have parked their money into a high end place, while the student's babysit it.
With the quick rise of China, many from that side are looking to move their money in what could be a volatile market. Good ol Canada opens its arms wide open - no consideration for the ones who live here and have to suffer the consequences.
awyala
Guest
There are pockets of cities that are recession proof. We are probably not part of that strata of society.
So very similar to General Carpentry rates & terms. Cool.
