Have attitudes changed?

[OpenGambit]

The fact that we're on the internet, on a motorcycle site with the presumption that everyone here rides or about to start means we truly do not know what it is to be poor....even in our own backyard.

are you saying that I don't know what poverty is because I currently have internet and a motorcycle? because thats what it sounds like.

Secondly... the conversation was about the kid... not the parent, and yes, the kid has tons of opportunity, and has a much better life just by being here.

 

[AngelEyez]

lets focus on one area at a time. Yes if you compare us to 3rd world countries we're absolutley spoiled off our face with opportunity IF we can utilize it. How does a single father with no education, poor communicaton as he speaks little english...no immediate family and a 3 year old better himself for the sake of his child. He works 2 jobs just to make ends meet, he has to pay an arm and a leg for day care so he can work. osap means f'all to him because he cant take the time off to educate himself, god forbid something really does go wrong that requires excess money as he has none (Ive seen him struggle to feed his child). The funny thing is, ask him why he came to Canada "because he heard of the oppertunities"....doesn't quite seem like the "easy" life to me. Reply With Quote

The fact that we're on the internet, on a motorcycle site with the presumption that everyone here rides or about to start means we truly do not know what it is to be poor....even in our own backyard.

I completely agree. That story holds true not just for a new immigrant single father who came here to provide better opportunities for his child, but holds just as true for the canadian born single parent who works at walmart during the day and tim hortons at night to make ends meet for her child and has no support system in place, or the one who works a 60 hour week at an office job but comes home stressed and utterly exhausted.

I never made a comparison between single parent living in the west to the extremely impoverished nations like those on the African continent and there is no question that we are absurdly spoiled comparatively... I think that comparison misses the point entirely.

It's easy to dismiss any argument for betterment of the situation by conjuring up the absolutely worst possible scenario and providing it as a comparison. Not having an arm sucks? Well imagine being quadriplegic. Of course the child is lucky to have at least one parent in their life, and food on the table - that's not the point.

At the risk of repeating myself... The point is that isolationist and individualist culture combined with high divorce rates and single parent families leaves a lot of children isolated, with few real positive role models in their life. Yes many grow up to be great people in spite of it.... but there are many who never reach their true potential as a result and it effects society as a whole.

I'm not saying this is the ONLY cause of the decline in social values either.... I'm sure people will misconstrue my point that way as well.

 

[OpenGambit]

No, it doesn't miss the point at all. because the simple fact that someone managed to be here as a child and obtain a western high school education already makes you among the most privileged people on the planet.

Far too many have sqandered that opportunity and yet blame these minor, garbage obstacles (omg my parents divorced (50% of marriages), or I was poor (not really), or I am not white (garbage) when billions of people on the planet would gladly trade places with you.

Every kid who grew up here has every tool they need to succeed. If you didn't end up living the life you wanted, there is no one to blame but yourself.

 

[Redrock]

are you saying that I don't know what poverty is because I currently have internet and a motorcycle? because thats what it sounds like.

I'm saying some people never get the opportunites that you and I have. They dont know what its is to browse the internet or even the thought of getting a motorcycle because that is not a reality for them. If you were poor and got the opportunity to move up or get ahead than you are blessed, for some people opportunity is as grim as the thought of even buying a motorcycle. life is vicous on multipile levels for different people.

 

[OpenGambit]

I'm saying some people never get the opportunites that you and I have. They dont know what its is to browse the internet or even the thought of getting a motorcycle because that is not a reality for them. If you were poor and got the opportunity to move up or get ahead than you are blessed, for some people opportunity is as grim as the thought of even buying a motorcycle. life is vicous on multipile levels for different people.

and my point is that trying to tell me that any kid growing up in Canada doesn't have opportunity is just silly, ( short of actual personal disability ). If I could do it, anyone else can do it.

 

[Redrock]

No, it doesn't miss the point at all. because the simple fact that someone managed to be here as a child and obtain a western high school education already makes you among the most privileged people on the planet.

Far too many have sqandered that opportunity and yet blame these minor, garbage obstacles (omg my parents divorced (50% of marriages), or I was poor (not really), or I am not white (garbage) when billions of people on the planet would gladly trade places with you.

Every kid who grew up here has every tool they need to succeed. If you didn't end up living the life you wanted, there is no one to blame but yourself.

...and no, not every kid that was born here got the opportunity to go to highschool, It was a privilege to many but not all.

 

[OpenGambit]

...and no, not every kid that was born here got the opportunity to go to school, It was a privilege to many but not all.

Sorry. but as I said before, if I could do it, i really don't have that much sympathy.

Secondly, people are talking about crap obstacles like (omg i have a single parent)... that is a far cry from (I never got a chance to go to school), which are completely different universes.

single parent - probably 50 % of population (divorce rate as proxy)

never getting a chance to go to school ( I'll use literacy rate as a proxy here )

Literacy

definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 99%
male: 99%
female: 99% (2003 est.)

 

[AngelEyez]

Secondly, people are talking about crap obstacles like (omg i have a single parent)... that is a far cry from (I never got a chance to go to school), which are completely different universes.

I agree they are quite different universes.... most people would give up a chance to go to school in a heartbeat to have their father or their mother in their life. Which only proves my point that children are deprived of the support they need when in situations where they only have those two people to look and something goes awry. Where in a community oriented environment the child would not feel the loss of that parent as detrimentally if they had a whole host of positive role models providing them with the love and support that they need.

 

[ROGO]

I grew up in Jane and Finch. I left my home when I was 14, have since reconciled many years ago but the point below is so true. I've got my own family in a good neighborhood and have a great life. There is no one to blame but yourself for any misfortune or failings in your life. I've grown up with people who've been in jail or were killed or overdosed on drugs. You can choose to learn from life or let it beat you down. At the end of the day that's your individual choice.

If you know the definition of insanity then why live that way?

It's never too late to make a choice to better your current situation. The hardest part is believing in yourself to be able to go after what you deserve.

One of the good things as a society we can do to help each other is share our experiences both good and bad so that others may learn from our mistakes.

Every kid who grew up here has every tool they need to succeed. If you didn't end up living the life you wanted, there is no one to blame but yourself.

 

[AngelEyez]

You can choose to learn from life or let it beat you down. At the end of the day that's your individual choice.

This is right. As adults we can make this choice.... not sure a child can consciously make this choice without being guided by positive role models and to some extent it depends on your inherent disposition.... which leads us down that nature v. nurture path. Personally I believe nurture plays a way bigger role then genetics.

 

[Redrock]

....and what about the kids that got thrown out of their houses at a young age? Do they not have to work to survive? Life is no cheaper for a 15-16 year old that got the boot from their parents for whatever reason....the basic foundantions of family were taken away. They did not have the opportunity for high school as they were busy trying to survive on their own. In the society in which we live, your worth pretty close to minum wage unless you have a piece of paper stating you were educated for a role which is deemed worth more.

Now I do have a close friend who has no education beyond elementary and he's done very well for himself...but I think its rare and he is very lucky to be where he is. When he tells me his story its almost fairy tale like as it seems the moons all alined for him.

 

[ROGO]

With respect to nurture, the choices I made as a child were certainly influenced by my parents and KG education. Choice is choice and IMO most problems start in the teenage years when we try to find what type of person we will choose to be in society. As much as influences will abound it will still boil down to the individual and no one else.

This is right. As adults we can make this choice.... not sure a child can consciously make this choice without being guided by positive role models and to some extent it depends on your inherent disposition.... which leads us down that nature v. nurture path. Personally I believe nurture plays a way bigger role then genetics.

 

[Redrock]

its also worth mentioning in the day and age we live in our money does not go as far as it did in previous generations. As a family could have a single source of income to provide, now both if not all members of a household must contribute financially.

 

[OpenGambit]

....and what about the kids that got thrown out of their houses at a young age? Do they not have to work to survive? Life is no cheaper for a 15-16 year old that got the boot from their parents for whatever reason....the basic foundantions of family were taken away. They did not have the opportunity for high school as they were busy trying to survive on their own. In the society in which we live, your worth pretty close to minum wage unless you have a piece of paper stating you were educated for a role which is deemed worth more.

Now I do have a close friend who has no education beyond elementary and he's done very well for himself...but I think its rare and he is very lucky to be where he is. When he tells me his story its almost fairy tale like as it seems the moons all alined for him.

Sorry, that won't sway me, as I said before, unless its a physical or mental disability.... it means nothing.
I am sure people think that I am being a huge dick, and I certainly am, but that is because in my opinion, any world view that has anything controlling your life other than you serves no positive purpose. Even as a kid, you only have 2 choices, win or lose. I just happen to think that you just have to do whatever it takes to win.

You get what you were dealt, and you have to work with it.

I grew up my a factory, I slept on either concrete floors, or bolts of cloth (because thats what they made).
I immigrated here without knowing a word of english
I have a single parent, who is physcially disabled and can not work
My family had government assistance
I worked minimum wage jobs throughout highschool because my parent could not.
I graduated high school with a flat 50% and the minimum amount of credits, in my grade 12 year, I failed 5 courses out of 8 and I had 187 absences (out of approximately 200)
I was dignosed with depression (and i was prescibed medication that I refused to take - so **** mental disabilities too)
Got arrested a bunch of times (no convictions)

fast forward 10 years.

I am at a top teir law firm, I do financial markets/M&A work. I bought a house in a good neighbourhood. I hide my tattoos but I don't forget what I used to have/not have.

So really.

no parents, ****** education, bad english? Doesn't matter. as long as you are able bodied and you have a brain and a good work ethic you have the opportunity to make your life better. I succeeded because other people are only willing to put in 50 hrs a week and I am willing to put in 100. I will never tell anyone that their problems are acceptable excuses for not getting what they want. Because its completely pointless. The world doesn't care if you don't succeed, you are the only one that suffers if you allow anything in the way of you and what you want.

 

[AngelEyez]

^^ your story is truly inspiring Gambit, as is ROGO's, but it doesn't detract from the value of wanting things to be better for future generations and having discussion in that light. I don't think we should just throw our hands up and say screw you, I went through hell and succeeded in spite of all the obstacles and so should you. I'm sure you wouldn't want your children to endure all of the hardships you went through, even though it made you who you are.

 

[rmemedic]

^^ your story is truly inspiring Gambit, as is ROGO's, but it doesn't detract from the value of wanting things to be better for future generations and having discussion in that light. I don't think we should just throw our hands up and say screw you, I went through hell and succeeded in spite of all the obstacles and so should you. I'm sure you wouldn't want your children to endure all of the hardships you went through, even though it made you who you are.

Of course if I had kids I wouldn't want them to go through the same stuff I did, or the other horrible things that go on here and around the world.

But, I totally get where Gambit is coming from. I can't stand that TV show "intervention" because all I hear is excuses for being weak and taking the easy way out.
I had to see a social worker in the spring of 2011. It was brought on due to things that happened here at home while I was overseas. In the first session, he wanted to hear how I grew up and he was fairly surprised at what I had experienced as a kid and said by all circumstances I should be living a totally different life than what I have now. He asked why I thought I turned out the way I have, and I said I already know how it is to live a life full of stress and fear and anger, so why would I choose to live that way?
I don't really want to list off all of what I experienced growing up because I do not want to be judged on it, but there isn't much I didn't experience. Nobody except my closest friends had any clue I came from the home I did.

I should be somewhere, hardly being employed, living in a slum with some form of substance abuse problem with a violent attitude.

You can take what you've been given and use it as an excuse, or you can take it to push you to be something... And I'm not done pushing yet.

 

[fastar1]

^^ your story is truly inspiring Gambit, as is ROGO's, but it doesn't detract from the value of wanting things to be better for future generations and having discussion in that light. I don't think we should just throw our hands up and say screw you, I went through hell and succeeded in spite of all the obstacles and so should you. I'm sure you wouldn't want your children to endure all of the hardships you went through, even though it made you who you are.

I suspect that if they don't go through at least some hardships, they will end up messed up. And in our society it's easy to achieve that level of sheltering from harm. "Bubble wrapped kids".

 

[OpenGambit]

I didn't post that to have a competition with anyone about having problems. What I do know is that people don't need problems, they need solutions.

my only point is that it doesn't matter where you start off in life, only where you end up. and between those two points, the only one driving the bus is you.

 

[ROGO]

Hey Gambit, It's funny how similar our opinions are today. I whole heartily agree that blame can only be placed on the individual end of story done.

The world is harsh, you either sink or swim. If you don't view the world with the mind of a "Dick" then you'll be shafted every time.

Excuses are just that. They help noone progress in any way. If you don't believe in yourself then guess what, why should anyone else. We can only help those that want to be helped, everyone else will continue to spiral downward until they realize for themselves that they want help or are willing to do something about their situation.

In terms of having two jobs to make rent and support the family what's the problem? Is the problem providing food and shelter, which in my opinion shouldn't be very difficult even on one salary. Or is the problem about the insecurity of many that they want to have what they can't afford and don't need and put themselves in a situation that causes them to question life and how S_H_I_T it is.

I've have means, am in good financial situation but my family still looks at ways to clip coupons and spend time together. We are very fortunate to be in a place where a thought can become reality. It's within the individuals drive and passion to go against what everyone else is telling them and just do.

No excuses people. One persons luck and fortune is a simple matter of that persons belief in them self to get what they feel they deserve and not what society tells them they can achieve.

So getting back to the point of attitudes changing. No matter how hard life is or how you've been raised it always falls back to the individuals choice and how they want to live their life going forward. Hopefully as a member of society your able to recognize the consequences of your actions and learn how to make changes if you want something better. If you fail to see the signs and hope things will change regardless, good luck with that.

I didn't post that to have a competition with anyone about having problems. What I do know is that people don't need problems, they need solutions.

my only point is that it doesn't matter where you start off in life, only where you end up. and between those two points, the only one driving the bus is you.

 

[rmemedic]

I didn't post that to have a competition with anyone about having problems. What I do know is that people don't need problems, they need solutions.

my only point is that it doesn't matter where you start off in life, only where you end up. and between those two points, the only one driving the bus is you.

I didn't see it as any form of competition, it's just people giving off first hand examples of coming from one of these "bad" back grounds and becoming successful despite it. Your situation was a difficult one, so was mine just in different ways.

The world is harsh, you either sink or swim. If you don't treat the world with the mind of a "Dick" then you'll be shafted every time.

I have learned this too, but there is a place and time for that... Sometimes at work I have to be a little pushy and a bit of a "dick" to get my point across or to get things done. And sometimes in private life there is a time for it as well. But, when you're out in public you don't always need to be a dick at the drop of a hat. Give people a chance, THEN you can be a dick if they F it up.

Pretty much I treat people the way I treat my grandma (she's a pretty cool grandma so I can get away with lots).