Fire arm control

[llaen]

You wear your seatbelt in you car? Cause i do and ive never crashed...but just in case i keep that mofo on...

I never would want to shoot at another person in my life, but if this crazy scenario came up id rather it be a fair fight

I don't think we can compare wearing seatbelts to legalizing guns...

Overall, if something's not broken (crime rates being much lower compared to other Western countries with different gun laws), why try to fix it? Especially using a fix that's not at all proven to work.
Most of the speculation about the advantages of CCW seems to be based on hypothetical scenarios. How is that a good enough reason to allow it?

 

[llaen]

No history eh? remember that guy on the bus who chopped off some peoples heads? everyone ran off the bus as the guy continued to chop. now just imagine if 1 in 10 people on that bus had the training and common sense to use that gun, you know perhaps like a POLICE officer...

As far as I can remember that attack was unexpected and quite sudden. Even if the whole bus was packing I don't see how you can react before the guy had stabbed/killed the victim.

Now imagine that the guy had a gun instead of a knife. Read any random news article from the US about a mass shooting and you'll get the picture of what would've happened then. Is that a better scenario?

 

[RockerGuy]

A common argument amongst the non-CCW supporters. Fact is, just about every part of that sentence is chosen to elicit a different meaning than the actual fact.

Fact is that people who actually legally carry represent a very small portion of the population, and most of them are trained and practice regularly. The vast majority of people who carry firearms for self-defense take that right very seriously, and actively avoid any situations in which they might be required to use a gun.

For me, the argument is simple, nearly every law-biding person has the right to self defense with the best tools possible. You can discuss training, no-carry zones, limitations, age requirements, etc, but its all details.

For those of you who aren't sure you want a bunch of people going all over the place and being armed, you should consider that its already happening. gangbangers and the like carry guns every day, and they're all over the place. It's simple, criminals will always be better armed than civilians, but CCW can tip the scales to give innocent people a fighting chance.

True!
Its the illegal guns we have to worry about. Which brings me to another argument. If there weren't legal guns floating around, there wouldn't be illegal guns. Come to think about it, the gun manufacturers affects the government and affects the laws in the US. Do you know how much the gun market is worth?? I would say lots of money. Imagine shutting down that industry, trillions would be lost. Thats probably why the Americans would not outlaw firearms.

As for my stance, I am kinda sitting in the middle, but waning more towards the "lesser gun" crowd. With less guns around the possibility of committing a crime by firearm lessens.

BTW, I am going for my PAL this weekend, its gonna be so fun, I'm stoked

 

[promac]

I don't think we can compare wearing seatbelts to legalizing guns...

Overall, if something's not broken (crime rates being much lower compared to other Western countries with different gun laws), why try to fix it? Especially using a fix that's not at all proven to work.
Most of the speculation about the advantages of CCW seems to be based on hypothetical scenarios. How is that a good enough reason to allow it?

Thats what we've been saying about gun control - it's been proven to be ineffective, so why not repeal it. On the other hand ccw in the US has proven to reduce crime by signicant amounts - IIRC, anywhere from 10 - 30%. Perhaps they're on to something!

 

[short stop]

Majority of police officers have never fired at a live human being, nor will they ever in their career. You're reaching son...

Who's reaching? The selection process and training involved for police officers is quite different than the 2-day course and basic background check required to obtain a PAL. You can't compare police officers to your average citizen with a PAL.

Oh, and how bout that lightning strike? Have you also made the appropriate preparations for it? 'Cuz, it could happen one day, and I'm sure you want to be prepared...

 

[short stop]

Thats what we've been saying about gun control - it's been proven to be ineffective, so why not repeal it. On the other hand ccw in the US has proven to reduce crime by signicant amounts - IIRC, anywhere from 10 - 30%. Perhaps they're on to something!

Post a link to your stats.

 

[Flashmonkey]

If I had a gun I'd shoot you all in the face!

 

[rmemedic]

100% support the right to carry. I have my PAL, I would like to have my rPAL as well, but it's too much of a pain just to be able to shoot at only a range, and I get to shoot my 9mm a couple times a year with work anyways.

To allow it, the course needs to be beefed up, and involve actual shooting time to show complete competency. Sure, not everyone will pass, but that's ok.
Yearly apptitude testing should be required to show they are fluent with the weapon. This also puts the level of ability of use higher than most criminals who likely just spray and pray and never have actual shooting time.
What this will do, is put doubt in to the mind of criminals as to who is packing and who isn't. Not everyone would be (by either choice or the fact they were shown not to be competent enough) but they just won't know if someone in the area is willing to fight back.

I trust the average person won't just pull out their side arm and blow someone away for stupid reason, but you know that those that chose a criminal life or one ruled by substance abuse are already not the clearest thinking.
I have my tire iron next to the front seat of my truck for a reason, not because I think something will happen, but it's a just in case... I would love to have the ability to pull a side arm instead.

Even if you're not the one under attack but were just witnessing, you could protect other people.
With a proper holster, even with needing to chamber a round, you can be up in shooting position in an instant.

 

[invictus43]

Just for laughs, who here as been the victim of a violent crime that resulted in a criminal trial?

 

[rmemedic]

Who's reaching? The selection process and training involved for police officers is quite different than the 2-day course and basic background check required to obtain a PAL. You can't compare police officers to your average citizen with a PAL.

Oh, and how bout that lightning strike? Have you also made the appropriate preparations for it? 'Cuz, it could happen one day, and I'm sure you want to be prepared...

In order to get this permit, it wouldn't be just a 2 day course and a couple phone calls, it would be a challenge and the greater number of people wouldn't be able to pass the "ability" portion that would have to be added.
Most cops can't shoot for crap. Might shoot better than the average person, but by no means are they "good"... Most people in the military also suck, aside from people who actually shoot all the time.
I know lots of civilians that can really shoot, and would put most officers and military employees to shame. I grew up on a farm with a gun in my hand since I was a kid (under 10) the military taught me little about shooting aside from my CQB drills.

 

[invictus43]

I have my tire iron next to the front seat of my truck for a reason, not because I think something will happen, but it's a just in case... I would love to have the ability to pull a side arm instead.

And if the other person has a gun? You ready to escalate to shoot-out over a traffic issue? Like, seriously? How many people live with paranoia to the point where they're driving around with a tire iron in the cab?? Yeesh..

 

[llaen]

So what are the stats in US states with CCW laws? More or less crime overall?

There's different variations of the law. You can check the table here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States#Permitting_policies

Here's some gun crime stats.

This spreadsheet gives firearm murder rates per state (hope the link works): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdGhycDRPQlN1dTBoMzJWOTk0Uk9DRVE&hl=en#gid=0
(Taken from http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state)

And finally some crime rates in Canada: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada#Crime_statistics_by_province_and_territory

Ontario has a homicide rate of 1.5 (for 2007) and the average for Canada is 1.9. According to the Wikipedia article, firearm homicide in Canada is 1/3 of all homicide, which puts Ontario's gun deaths at 0.5 per 100,000 (more than 7 times less than that of California for example).
The only US states with less or similar number of gun-related deaths are Idaho, Iowa, North & South Dakota and Vermont which have a tiny amount of (registered) guns, Vermont actually has 0. That number would be a bit higher for a province like Ontario.
Also check the percentage of firearm murders in the different states and compare that to our 33% (nation-wide).

Crime rates vary a lot across provinces and different US states. Overall, the violent crime rate is higher in the US, but we all know that already, so it's certainly not the case that guns have helped them a lot. In fact, judging by the facts​, they're killing a ton of people.

Should we trust stats or hypothetical situations in our minds? Hmm...

Thats what we've been saying about gun control - it's been proven to be ineffective, so why not repeal it. On the other hand ccw in the US has proven to reduce crime by signicant amounts - IIRC, anywhere from 10 - 30%. Perhaps they're on to something!

Stats or it didn't happen.

 

[rmemedic]

And if the other person has a gun? You ready to escalate to shoot-out over a traffic issue? Like, seriously? How many people live with paranoia to the point where they're driving around with a tire iron in the cab?? Yeesh..

For a traffic issue, I would continue with my middle finger salute, I'm not unstable in the head enough to shoot at someone for that...
It's more for personal protection if someone else decides they want the better of me for whatever reason... I'm not the kind of person to just sit and take it from anyone, unlike most of the cowards in society who expect someone else to look after them.

How many people do you know have a base ball bat or something similar in the front closet, under their bed or by the back door? It's the SAME THING, except in my truck.
You enter my space not welcomed and in a manner showing me intent, then you won't get the result you're hoping for.

 

[RockerGuy]

I grew up on a farm with a gun in my hand since I was a kid (under 10) the military taught me little about shooting aside from my CQB drills.

They don't need to train medics to use guns

And if the other person has a gun? You ready to escalate to shoot-out over a traffic issue? Like, seriously? How many people live with paranoia to the point where they're driving around with a tire iron in the cab?? Yeesh..

Yeh, screw tire iron, I've got a steak knife, I mean a seatbelt cutter. There was a time where high end cars were being targeted where they pull the driver out at the stoplight

 

[rmemedic]

They don't need to train medics to use guns



Yeh, screw tire iron, I've got a steak knife, I mean a seatbelt cutter. There was a time where high end cars were being targeted where they pull the driver out at the stoplight

Ha ha no, if you talk to most people medics have never had to shoot back...

 

[invictus43]

Yeh, screw tire iron, I've got a steak knife, I mean a seatbelt cutter. There was a time where high end cars were being targeted where they pull the driver out at the stoplight

Like I say, I'm not against carrying firearms..the problem is the mentality of some of the people who want them. I can't imagine many situations in a vehicle where the best option isn't to have your doors locked and just drive away. If they have a gun pointed at you, do we really have time to pull and shoot? Probably not. So get out and give them the car. If they don't have a gun, just drive away. If you feel like someone wronged you and you have to prove to them that you're the man and they're in the wrong, should that person have a gun??

For me, steak knife, tire iron, gun..whatever..it's all the same. Gun just escalates the violence faster and kills more people quicker. If you're determined, steak knife will still do the job. In the end, it's the society and people behind them that are the problem.

 

[promac]

If I had a gun I'd shoot you all in the face!

As long as someone didn't draw quicker with a double tap to your vitals. Then again, people can't legally carry, so I suppose we'd all be SOL! See what happens.......hypothetically?

 

[jc100]

Majority of police officers have never fired at a live human being, nor will they ever in their career. You're reaching son...

I don't believe you're a trained police office with a mandate to uphold the law and enhanced training to support that. My statement stands as fact for the large majority of civilians with weapons. That's not reaching...that's common sense.

 

[Onagoth]

You guys are getting away from the point.....it doesn't matter if canada is a relatively safe place to live, the fact that there is any crime at all is what is important.

If there is any chance, however remote, that someone might be the victim of a violent crime, then they should eb afforded the right to defend themselves.

There are a million statistics on how safe an armed society can be.

Ie. Vermont is generally regarded as having the least stringent gun control laws, allowing citizens to carry guns without permits. They are also the only state to NEVER have had a state trooper killed by a firearm.

Ie. Switzerland allows all their citizens to own guns, even fully automatic firearms. Gun crime in Switzerland is so low its not even tracked.

Point being, guns don't cause crimes, criminals do. Law abiding citizens owing guns does not cause or incite crime!

 

[psycho44]

doesn't the school shooting incidents in the States teach us anything? These are people that just walked into a store and legally obtained a gun than go off shooting an entire classroom.