Feds plan to melt ICE | Page 20 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Feds plan to melt ICE

Baggsy said:
Has Tesla won the nozzle wars, and will they be able to timely up the voltage in their stations?

Will insurance go wacko, as they get a sense of what electric vehicles will cost to repair/replace?
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I don't understand raising the voltage? The hilariously stupid interim solution for high power EV charging without a cost-effective supply is big generators beside the chargers. A battery bank can be used if there are big swings between high load and low load but if the chargers are busy all the time, a battery bank can't help you.

Insurance isn't just an EV issue although they seem to be at the forefront of disposable construction. I expect insurance for manufacturers that design for the dump will quickly be far out of reach. Things like potting the battery pack to prevent cell level repairs, putting emergency power disconnect in the C pillar to structurally destroy the vehicle, etc drive costs to the moon and very little benefit to anybody other than the OEM.

I suspect at some point either an OEM or third party will have a reasonable refurbishment system in place for battery packs. Right now they get a dent, nobody will sign off that they are guaranteed safe, new OEM battery is a huge price (probably at least partially because they would rather use their supply to make new cars than fix sold ones) so car gets written off. There is no need for that stupidity. The upside to OEM's trying to charge well into five figures for batteries is there is lots of room there for someone to sell batteries with a warranty for much less.
 
GreyGhost said:
I don't understand raising the voltage? The hilariously stupid interim solution for high power EV charging without a cost-effective supply is big generators beside the chargers. A battery bank can be used if there are big swings between high load and low load but if the chargers are busy all the time, a battery bank can't help you.

Insurance isn't just an EV issue although they seem to be at the forefront of disposable construction. I expect insurance for manufacturers that design for the dump will quickly be far out of reach. Things like potting the battery pack to prevent cell level repairs, putting emergency power disconnect in the C pillar to structurally destroy the vehicle, etc drive costs to the moon and very little benefit to anybody other than the OEM.
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Here's a video that I watched saying that their stations can support high power but don't produce it yet. I think the part about the voltage is in the last segment. Maybe I misunderstood, it was dry as dust.

Here's an article about insurance:
Insurance industry examines coverage, risks of all-electric vehicles
 
Baggsy said:
Here's a video that I watched saying that their stations can support high power but don't produce it yet. I think the part about the voltage is in the last segment. Maybe I misunderstood, it was dry as dust.

Here's an article about insurance:
Insurance industry examines coverage, risks of all-electric vehicles
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The clustertruck charges at 800V. Until now, Tesla had no reason to have 800V chargers as none of their vehicles supported it. While very fast charge times are helpful on a long trip, I doubt EV's will be the vehicle of choice for that trip for a long time. Fast charging hurts battery life (and is normally quite expensive approaching similar cost per km as an ICE vehicle). Fine in a pinch but not ideal.
 
800 ~ 1000 V charging is sure to eventually become standard. The higher-powered CCS chargers already support it. Tesla doesn't yet, supposedly coming with V4 superchargers, but those aren't out yet. All current EVs that are capable of being charged at 800 V have provisions for charging at half their nominal voltage in order to function with lower-powered charging stations that are only rated at 500 V max.

As for "the nozzle wars" ... This took SAE to turn it into an adopted standard (SAE J3400) in order for everyone else to get on board. There's a lot more to it than the shape of the plug. I found out recently that the J3400 plug is different than Tesla's traditional plug - it has longer pins, in order to get more electrical contact area, in order to get higher current capacity - but it's backwards-compatible. And, the communications protocol (used for the charger and vehicle to communicate what voltage and current to use, etc) is CCS, not what Tesla previously used (and still uses when a Tesla vehicle plugs into a Tesla charger). Tesla has to do a software update to their older (pre-2020 IIRC) vehicles that don't yet "speak" CCS. This is all so that the adapter between an existing CCS vehicle and a J3400 charging station can be a dumb plug.

Current lithium-ion batteries are adversely affected by charging rate, but there's all sorts of talk about upcoming tech (e.g. solid-state batteries) that is less sensitive to this. Having the charging stations capable of high power delivery future-proofs them for future battery developments. The charging stations are agnostic to what type of battery is in the vehicle - the communication is "gimme X voltage at Y current" and it's up to the car with its own BMS integral to the battery to do what that battery needs with that power being supplied.
 
I’m ok with annual check tags , but don’t make me have a 1 yr old vehicle tested please. Trying to capture all scenarios, we will likely see an “ adequate “ solution not optimal.


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crankcall said:
I’m ok with annual check tags , but don’t make me have a 1 yr old vehicle tested please. Trying to capture all scenarios, we will likely see an “ adequate “ solution not optimal.


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The one year old vehicle check picks up the led in halogen housings, window tint and muffler deletes. Those are often done early in life.
 
GreyGhost said:
Eliminating parking is an easy step towards affordable housing. Costs vary, but $50-100K per underground spot in construction costs is in the ballpark. Assuming a municipality followed through with requirements that a large percentage of spots have the potential for charging at 10kW, killing parking spots also makes the infrastructure more feasible. Prior to EV requirements, a 50 storey, 350 unit highrise would require about 1500 KVA. If you assumed one parking spot per unit and 20% of spots with a 10kW charging potential, that adds another 50% to the incoming power requirement. Cut back to 50 spots and even if you still did 20% with charging, the power becomes a rounding error.

Now, I think the OBC requirement that was included and then repealed was for EVSE and not specifically for level 2 evse. Obviously if 1.5 kW chargers were installed instead of 10kW chargers, the math is more favorable.
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If EV's save the planet and we reverse global warming it'll be too cold for cycling and we'll nee more cars. Government subsidies will be needed to build car plants and parking facilities.

Industries of the future will derive their profits from government subsidies instead of producing goods. It's already in the farm market with farmers in the USA being paid to not plant certain crops.
 
crankcall said:
Wife’s car is 6yrs old , 18,000kms . Longest trip it ever took was 160kms , ONCE . Perfect candidate for an EV , by the time this mandate kicks in , she may be ready .


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Our one car has about 75,000 on it over five years. We've done a few day trips to Niagara, Muskoka and the Kawarthas.

EV would work but the fuel savings don't justify the upcharge to go electric. With reasonable maintenance the car can last 15 or more years without a five figure battery replacement. Bigger subsidies are required to up EV sales. Basically everyone pays the government EV slush fund $XXXX so they can get $XXX back when they buy an EV.

Battery technology is changing rapidly and will new batteries fit old cars and chargers?

Ryobi went from Ni Cad to Lithium and it required a new charger but the NiCad tools worked with the new batteries.

Milwaukee changed their 18 volt tools and the new batteries wouldn't fit the old tools and chargers. A lot of tools got scrapped.
 
GreyGhost said:
On that note, places that would not typically be considered EV hotspots are well equipped for them. Many parking lots in the prairies/alberta/northern ontario have receptacles at every parking spot for block heaters. They are fed with dedicated 15A circuits. They won't be happy if all spots were full of EV's but they have a decent amount of power available. Some only turn on in the cold and some cycle on and off every 20 minutes to limit power usage. Those controls aren't ideal for EV charging but not a deal breaker (easy to disable temp sensor and cycling just means slower average charge rate).

Stolen from another forum:
https://www.reddit.com/r/electricians/comments/16mb7wm
"The reason this is important is that it’s a factor in the feeder sizing. If the receptacles are neither restricted nor controlled, you must consider the first 30 parking stalls as 1200w of demand each, the next 30 as 1000w each, and every stall after that as 800w each."
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Japanese car block heaters tend to be 400-500 watts. Diesel pickups about 1000 watts and Cummins around 1500 watts. I don't know how the present systems are fused out but I assume a L1 charger runs 1500 watts making most of the above receptacles unusable unless on a flip flop system.

The whole EV thing reminds me of the play "Waiting for Godot" where two twits wait day after day for Mr. Godot to come and meet them. Every day a messenger comes instead apologizing "Mr. Godot can't come today but will come tomorrow." They wait again. It's the literary equivalent of "The cheque's in the mail."
 
backmarkerducati said:
Noted this before, and having done ROI models for charging stations...

The challenge is, without heavy government subsidies, the ROI for building charging stations privately at scale is not there and it is mostly due to home charging. Why would people pay to charge if they are doing it at home for cheap (or much cheaper). So they just get used for longer trips or the odd EV owner (today) that does not have 240 charging at home and is running on 120v (or not at all).

The next secondary complexity is free or offering charging below ROI places. Some municipalities have free stations at city sites. Tesla was free for some buyers. Larger stores that were using it as a loss leader to draw people in.

In the end if everyone is driving an EV in 10 to 15 years the business case may be there (then) as maybe 30% of the population can have proper cost effective home charging installs (house with a driveway, decent electrical service, not MDU, not SFU with street parking only). How do we get from here to there? Chicken and egg type of thing, we can't go 100% EV because of charging infrastructure--we can't build the charging infrastructure because we don't have enough EVs.

Solution, tax payers bend over. That is the answer when people say it will sort itself out just like balancing the budget.

And then road taxes....
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How much, all together, have the various governments put in so far with rebates, infrastructure, battery plant enticements, studies, etc and where are we on the path to the holy grail of 100% compliance?

What is the budget for this goal and are there any guarantees of success?
 
nobbie48 said:
How much, all together, have the various governments put in so far with rebates, infrastructure, battery plant enticements, studies, etc and where are we on the path to the holy grail of 100% compliance?

What is the budget for this goal and are there any guarantees of success?
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It would be really hard to tie down a number. Don't forget the tens of thousands of fleet vehicles that governments purchased to prop up hybrid and EV numbers even if they were not fit for purpose and spent their lives in the back of a storage yard.

To answer your second question, there is no budget limit for greenwashing. Any amount can be spent no matter how minimal the improvement (or even if the reality is increasing emissions like with the hybrid ambulance disaster where they were always broken and now get de-retrofitted never having saved much of anything). The success is the marketing and greenwashing. No government measures the emissions impact after the press release.
 
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GreyGhost said:
I still think the province will introduce regularly scheduled safeties (probably bi-annual) and use that to get accurate odometer readings and assess a road tax per km (potentially different rates for ICE which already paid gas tax and EV's which didn't).
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Onstar tells you you've put on XXXX Kms and you need an oil change. They can also CC big brother to send you a bill for the XXXX Kms of road use.
 
GreyGhost said:
The one year old vehicle check picks up the led in halogen housings, window tint and muffler deletes. Those are often done early in life.
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Tesla mufflers are all after market. :) :) On that subject, could all the muffler shops be converted to battery repair shops. Right now I'd say no due to training and safety issues.

Of course if self diving cars were perfect, windows wouldn't be needed so the tint shops close.
 
Using an Ioniq 5 instead of a generator:
 
Brian P said:
As for deals gap trips and track-day trips ... for me ... van with bikes inside is better than pickup truck with trailer. And this is how they do this in Europe, where there are vans everywhere, and very few pickup trucks.
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I usually take three people with me. Standard load is 5 bikes in the trailer, we often have six. Plus gear, spare fuel and usually some beer.

That said, for your scenario, something like a Ford Lightning would still need 6-7 stops for a probable minimum 2 hours apiece total - provided that the fast charging station is available and unused. So, 12-14 hours minimum just for charging time. That would roughly double the time it takes us to get there - with 4 times as many people and almost double the number of bikes. And let's not forget, the high speed chargers aren't free.
 
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Baggsy said:
Using an Ioniq 5 instead of a generator:
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The inrush current from the fridge compressor is hard on my inverter gennie. My non inverter one handles things better. Once running, fridges don't draw a lot but it's the compressor load.
 
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