Feds plan to melt ICE

[nakkers]

Forum Sponsor

No one has petro stations at their home. However, with EVs, home charging is a viable option for many.

Many EVs serve their purpose well with home charging, running around and return home.

 

[MacDoc]

Yep and if the restrictions were relaxed to allow smaller lighter EVs that are $10k...the deluge would come.

and there is pressure from eBikes as well

The UK’s Cycle to Work scheme enables employees to salary-sacrifice a new bike; France offers up to €4000 ($6631) to people who trade in their car for an e-bike; and Lithuania ran a similar program that had so much demand, its government had to allocate more funding.

The case for making families’ second car an e-bike instead

Rebates for electric bikes would benefit society more than discounts on electric cars.

www.brisbanetimes.com.au

 

[Baggsy]

No one has petro stations at their home. However, with EVs, home charging is a viable option for many.

Many EVs serve their purpose well with home charging, running around and return home.

I have a gas can at home. Some times it's full.
Does everyone need a home to own a car?
What about those in apartments and condos?

I like the concept and will probably get a hybrid for my next vehicle since I need the range, but the whole process needs more thinking and more action.

As far as the Tesla killer from China; I would hope that people trying to reduce emissions would be more aware of how their prospective vehicle is being produced, and whether it's in a responsible way.

As for e-bikes. I consider them dangerous to all.

Edit: I just saw this:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/honda-investment-canada-elect4ric-vehicles-sources-1.7077307

 

[MacDoc]

As for e-bikes. I consider them dangerous to all.

sez the mcycle rider with nary a trace of irony

 

[Baggsy]

sez the mcycle rider with nary a trace of irony

I don't ride an unlicensed, uninsured bike on the sidewalks, and mine is less likely to burn the house to the ground.
Anecdotally, a friend's kid has been in two accidents while riding one.

 

[nobbie48]

Yep and if the restrictions were relaxed to allow smaller lighter EVs that are $10k...the deluge would come.

and there is pressure from eBikes as well

The case for making families’ second car an e-bike instead

Rebates for electric bikes would benefit society more than discounts on electric cars.

www.brisbanetimes.com.au

Looks like a promo video by BYD and for the Chinese market. BYD = Burn your dreams. There's a reason Ladas were cheap to buy. The sodium battery is interesting and could be a tipping point for those not interested in state of the art performance. When all of our hyped, government funded battery plants come on line in four years what will they be producing? Lithium or sodium? Who pays for the swing over?

We are suffering from info overload and that combined with YouTube BS and compartmentalization it's impossible to make realistic forecasts.

For example: I have room in the driveway for one of these things and the price could make it tempting. If it burns in the driveway I still have the house. HOWEVER Chow, Ford and fruitcake all talk about affordable housing which can only mean high rise with underground parking. Parking garages used to ban propane vehicles because of fire / explosion risks, warranted or not.

What other problems will arise down the road as decisions are made by people appointed to the job by connections instead of qualifications? Expect the "Not my job" replies.

Right now long term solutions are being decided upon by four year thinkers that are unable to keep pace with technology.

As long as social media keeps pumping out duplicate clips of flaming electric cars how long will it take for the fear to fade? Or is there a real risk?

ICEs can catch fire too. A guy in my late brothers apartment building came home from a long city traffic jam drive and when he got out of the car, noticed the electric cooling fan didn't shut off. So the genius physically stopped it and jammed some tissue paper around it to keep it from turning, then walked away.

It would be very interesting to see what would happen if taxpayer money wasn't on the table.

The average taxpayer fails to realize that our elected officials are contract employees and we, the taxpayers are responsible if we hire incompetents or criminals.

 

[GreyGhost]

Chow, Ford and fruitcake all talk about affordable housing which can only mean high rise with underground parking.

Eliminating parking is an easy step towards affordable housing. Costs vary, but $50-100K per underground spot in construction costs is in the ballpark. Assuming a municipality followed through with requirements that a large percentage of spots have the potential for charging at 10kW, killing parking spots also makes the infrastructure more feasible. Prior to EV requirements, a 50 storey, 350 unit highrise would require about 1500 KVA. If you assumed one parking spot per unit and 20% of spots with a 10kW charging potential, that adds another 50% to the incoming power requirement. Cut back to 50 spots and even if you still did 20% with charging, the power becomes a rounding error.

Now, I think the OBC requirement that was included and then repealed was for EVSE and not specifically for level 2 evse. Obviously if 1.5 kW chargers were installed instead of 10kW chargers, the math is more favorable.

 

[Brian P]

I have a funny feeling, and that's all it is, that most urban apartment-dwellers don't have long commutes and therefore don't actually need high-power L2 charging. (Please take note of the word in that sentence, "MOST". There will be exceptions. "EXCEPTIONS".)

I've gone through the math earlier. 8 hours of overnight charging on a 120VAC receptacle with a dedicated circuit (delivering 12 A) will deliver about 11 kWh and that's enough for 70-ish km of driving, and that's enough for 25,000 km per year, and that's roughly the annual average. If the car can be plugged in longer, it'll go further.

Downtown Oakville to downtown Toronto is 35-ish km. 401 exit 340 (Mavis Road) to exit 375 (404/DVP) is 35 km.

The lowest-powered 240V EVSE that you can get (16 amps) delivers 3.8 kW and in 8 hours that's half a charge on my Bolt. 150 km in winter. 200 plus in summer.

Occasional long trips is what DC fast-chargers are for.

 

[GreyGhost]

I have a funny feeling, and that's all it is, that most urban apartment-dwellers don't have long commutes and therefore don't actually need high-power L2 charging. (Please take note of the word in that sentence, "MOST". There will be exceptions. "EXCEPTIONS".)

I've gone through the math earlier. 8 hours of overnight charging on a 120VAC receptacle with a dedicated circuit (delivering 12 A) will deliver about 11 kWh and that's enough for 70-ish km of driving, and that's enough for 25,000 km per year, and that's roughly the annual average. If the car can be plugged in longer, it'll go further.

Downtown Oakville to downtown Toronto is 35-ish km. 401 exit 340 (Mavis Road) to exit 375 (404/DVP) is 35 km.

The lowest-powered 240V EVSE that you can get (16 amps) delivers 3.8 kW and in 8 hours that's half a charge on my Bolt. 150 km in winter. 200 plus in summer.

Occasional long trips is what DC fast-chargers are for.

Agree. Dedicated circuit 120V outlets in many parking spots with a handful of L2 chargers per parking lot seem to make sense logistically. On the rare occasions where you get behind on charging, the L2 could get you caught up in an evening (probably simplest to use pay as you go for L2 instead of trying to include it in general condo expenses). Alternatively, if you are the one paying for the install and not benefiting from the convenience, a handful of L2's and no power at most parking spots is far cheaper and still probably gets the job done (although a logistical nightmare for those that live there). Hit the L2 every few days (probably has to be booked/scheduled to ensure you don't get stuck).

 

[crankcall]

Wife’s car is 6yrs old , 18,000kms . Longest trip it ever took was 160kms , ONCE . Perfect candidate for an EV , by the time this mandate kicks in , she may be ready .


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com

 

[Mad Mike]

According to the interweb, as of a few months ago, California had 14,000 fast-charging stations which included 38,000 fast-charging ports. The balance of "80,000" will be public access Level 2 AC chargers (which are slower). I don't know how many private Level 1 or Level 2 chargers there are ... probably approaching one per vehicle ... but keep in mind that a Level 1 charger could be the 120V AC one that comes with the car, plugged into any available receptacle. No installation no permit no nothing.

In 45,000 km, the number of times my own EV has been plugged into a DC fast-charger, total, ever, remains possible to count with my fingers.

couple things here. The auto manufacturers that gave away DC fast-charging for free without limits, aren't doing the system any favours. Those people are sitting occupying DC fast-chargers charging slowly to 100% while other people are waiting. The charging station networks that are charging by kWh and are not implementing idle fees, are also not doing the system any favours. They're likewise getting people sitting charging to 100% for hours and sitting occupying the spot afterward because it's not costing them anything. (Ideally, at something like 90% they should start billing for time, and then double it if the car remains plugged in and not charging.) The charging networks that are not fixing broken chargers (*cough* Electrify America) aren't doing the system any favours. Those chargers are counted in the total but not doing anybody any good.

Random spot check on Plugshare. Open Plugshare. Filter for 50kW minimum power (includes only fast-chargers). Zoom in on California. I am looking only at SAE J1772/CCS stations (not Tesla) because that's what my car uses. There's a bazillion of them. Zoom in on Interstate 5 about halfway between LA and San Fran. Chevron ExtraMile Coalinga, Chargepoint. Among the three available CCS/SAE plugs at that station, 2 are available, 1 is not. Random check a little further south at a Chargepoint Dennys in Lebec, CA. 3 stations, 3 chargers available. How about along I15. Baker Travel Centre. Another Chargepoint. 3 stations available, 1 not.

And yes, I am aware of *some* situations where people have been lined up at fast-chargers waiting for a spot. I've not had it happen, and at least right now as of this very moment, it is not the case at any of the randomly selected spots.

Looks like Electrify America doesn't report charger status to PlugShare. That's a nuisance.

I think Californians are facing 2 major problems, these might to a degree be similar to GTA problems.

1) Too few interstate charging points. There are long distances between city centers. A round trip between downtowns of San Diego and LA is 400KM, LA to SF 650KM, LA to LV 450KM - all out of the home range for most EV's.

2) There are a lot of urbanites that cannot install a home charger - rental properties, condo complexes, and residences with undesignated street parking, these city dwellers rely on charging stations. There is a ton of that in California's big cities.

Perhaps L1 chargers are the answer. Put parking meters everywhere, equip them with 120VAC. I'm sure owners of shopping centers, restaurants, strip plazas etc would put these in if they were cheap and generated $1/hr.

I remember years ago Winnipeg had 120VAC plugs in Parking Meters for block heaters. When time ran out, power was switched off.

 

[GreyGhost]

I remember years ago Winnipeg had 120VAC plugs in Parking Meters for block heaters. When time ran out, power was switched off.

On that note, places that would not typically be considered EV hotspots are well equipped for them. Many parking lots in the prairies/alberta/northern ontario have receptacles at every parking spot for block heaters. They are fed with dedicated 15A circuits. They won't be happy if all spots were full of EV's but they have a decent amount of power available. Some only turn on in the cold and some cycle on and off every 20 minutes to limit power usage. Those controls aren't ideal for EV charging but not a deal breaker (easy to disable temp sensor and cycling just means slower average charge rate).

Stolen from another forum:

https://www.reddit.com/r/electricians/comments/16mb7wm

"The reason this is important is that it’s a factor in the feeder sizing. If the receptacles are neither restricted nor controlled, you must consider the first 30 parking stalls as 1200w of demand each, the next 30 as 1000w each, and every stall after that as 800w each."

 

[timtune]

California has 40m vehicles (14m are cars 1m of those EVs.). They can’t make it work with 1m cars and 80k stations. I don’t know the ratio of cars to stations, but it’s gotta be double+ the petroleum ratio as range and fill times would dictate.

The definition of station is used differently for petroleum and electricity filling.

Here is 1 gas station:
View attachment 65409

And here are 5 EV stations:
View attachment 65410

That's funny math you're doing. I would say it's either 18-5 filling/charging stations or 1-1 filling charging locations but I don't see how you get 1-5

 

[Mad Mike]

That's funny math you're doing. I would say it's either 18-5 filling/charging stations or 1-1 filling charging locations but I don't see how you get 1-5

I didn't mention ratios - I pointed out terminology differences. For gasoline stations, the "station" is a place that will have multiple filling pumps.

For EVs, the Charging station is often used in a way that is analogous to the 'pump' at a Gas Station, not the gas station itself.

It's not easy to compare the fueling requirements for a Gas Station and EV Charging station network. Figuring out the needs for the E e-charging network is no easy task as there are a lot of considerations, and the variables are moving with technology, regulation, and EV adoption changes.

Add in uncertainty as to whether gov't will subsidize, heavily regulate, tax or compete in the EV charging network and you have an uncertain climate for investors.

 

[timtune]

Fair enough.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Noted this before, and having done ROI models for charging stations...

The challenge is, without heavy government subsidies, the ROI for building charging stations privately at scale is not there and it is mostly due to home charging. Why would people pay to charge if they are doing it at home for cheap (or much cheaper). So they just get used for longer trips or the odd EV owner (today) that does not have 240 charging at home and is running on 120v (or not at all).

The next secondary complexity is free or offering charging below ROI places. Some municipalities have free stations at city sites. Tesla was free for some buyers. Larger stores that were using it as a loss leader to draw people in.

In the end if everyone is driving an EV in 10 to 15 years the business case may be there (then) as maybe 30% of the population can have proper cost effective home charging installs (house with a driveway, decent electrical service, not MDU, not SFU with street parking only). How do we get from here to there? Chicken and egg type of thing, we can't go 100% EV because of charging infrastructure--we can't build the charging infrastructure because we don't have enough EVs.

Solution, tax payers bend over. That is the answer when people say it will sort itself out just like balancing the budget.

And then road taxes....

 

[crankcall]

It’s the “ what fills that road tax gap” that keeps me guessing .
So I guess the liberal mandate is working. , everyone is guessing …..


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com

 

[GreyGhost]

It’s the “ what fills that road tax gap” that keeps me guessing .
So I guess the liberal mandate is working. , everyone is guessing …..


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com

I still think the province will introduce regularly scheduled safeties (probably bi-annual) and use that to get accurate odometer readings and assess a road tax per km (potentially different rates for ICE which already paid gas tax and EV's which didn't).

 

[Mad Mike]

I still think the province will introduce regularly scheduled safeties (probably bi-annual) and use that to get accurate odometer readings and assess a road tax per km (potentially different rates for ICE which already paid gas tax and EV's which didn't).

Id return to road tags (annual stickers) that charge by vehicle type.

Maybe a split regional/provincial rate based on where you live.

 

[Baggsy]

Has Tesla won the nozzle wars, and will they be able to timely up the voltage in their stations?

Will insurance go wacko, as they get a sense of what electric vehicles will cost to repair/replace?

Forum Sponsor