(Electricians)Wiring up a 240v garage heater

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01cbr said:
Your not understanding

Permit or not....a great tip off to an insurance company that work was done illegally is work not meeting code.

Your suggestion to ignore code if your not going to get a permit is stupid.

BTW, how do you know the OP is isnt pulling a permit?
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my suggestion is different places have different requirments. There is nothing commonly accepted as "this is safe and this isn't" - It's all opinion.

Your not allowed to do electrical work without a license. If someone doesn't care about that, they shouldn't care about code. The op asked if 10-3 was ok. It is. So is 10-2. So is 12-2. #14 might get a little hot, but it'll work. In my opinion it's dangerous, but that's just my opinion. It'll still work.

BTW, how do you know the OP is isnt pulling a permit?
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I don't. But the licensed electrician doing the work would be able to tell him what to get.



EDIT:
esa makes the code. For them it's a guide line. for electricians and everyone else it's law. They can pass whatever they want. And It's the "Passed" which makes insurance companies happy.

No "Passed" = no coverage
 
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dasiffy said:
my suggestion is different places have different requirments. There is nothing commonly accepted as "this is safe and this isn't" - It's all opinion.

Your not allowed to do electrical work without a license. If someone doesn't care about that, they shouldn't care about code. The op asked if 10-3 was ok. It is. So is 10-2. So is 12-2. #14 might get a little hot, but it'll work. In my opinion it's dangerous, but that's just my opinion. It'll still work.

I don't. But the licensed electrician doing the work would be able to tell him what to get.
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Again, a home owner can perform electrical work legally in their own home, look it up.

Even with a 309A, you still cant do it legally in someone elses home.
 
dasiffy said:
my suggestion is different places have different requirments. There is nothing commonly accepted as "this is safe and this isn't" - It's all opinion.

Your not allowed to do electrical work without a license. If someone doesn't care about that, they shouldn't care about code. The op asked if 10-3 was ok. It is. So is 10-2. So is 12-2. #14 might get a little hot, but it'll work. In my opinion it's dangerous, but that's just my opinion. It'll still work.
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Do the rest of us a favor a stay away from electrical.

People like you are one of the reasons we have 24 hour emergency service. "It will work" LOL.
 
OK so the ESA wants the homeowner to pay $100 + for a permit to change a light switch?
And then the homeowner has to stay home for 2-3 days because you can't count on when the inspector is going to show up?
I suppose the light switch will have a serial number so the insurance company can trace it back to the factory and verify when it was made and / installed.
BTW the inspectors don't check every device and they aren't competent to comment on all aspects of modern technical electrical devices.

Brilliant. So instead of changing a light switch that is overheating due to weak contacts it's better to leave it in place and guarantee a fire. Well I suppose the fire will be legal.

BTW save me the what's your life worth comments. If we buy into every safety rule we will die of stavation.

True, a lot of people shouldn't touch tools. Period. They shouldn't drive cars either.
 
nobbie48 said:
OK so the ESA wants the homeowner to pay $100 + for a permit to change a light switch?
And then the homeowner has to stay home for 2-3 days because you can't count on when the inspector is going to show up?
I suppose the light switch will have a serial number so the insurance company can trace it back to the factory and verify when it was made and / installed.
BTW the inspectors don't check every device and they aren't competent to comment on all aspects of modern technical electrical devices.

Brilliant. So instead of changing a light switch that is overheating due to weak contacts it's better to leave it in place and guarantee a fire. Well I suppose the fire will be legal.

BTW save me the what's your life worth comments. If we buy into every safety rule we will die of stavation.

True, a lot of people shouldn't touch tools. Period. They shouldn't drive cars either.
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it says if you change/replace an electrical device.... a light bulb is an electrical device. do i need a permit to change the light bulb and do i have to get the changed light bulb inspected?
 
Seriously guys, hire a qualified contractor. Cheaper than burning the freakin place down. I had 220 installed for my tabel saw and then the same guy back to rewire the entire basement shop - permits all around.

Gerry
 
dasiffy said:
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that any electrical work done without a permit renders your home insurance null and void. (laws changed two or three years ago)
The only exception is a liscenced electrician replacing a light switch, or a receptical in his/her own home. Anything that's new, requires a permit.
that being said the american nec says 14awg is good for 20a. canada's cec says differently. There's safe and then there's safe.
Does it work and does it stay cool? If yes your good to go.
If your not following the law who cares if it's code.
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So much classic GTAM "win" in this post.

Our new 2012 cdn code was revised to be more in harmony with US codes. Its explained why in post 24 they consider "#14 good for 20amps" (read the footnote in the NEC too). In reality it isn't and MUST be fused at 15amp whether cdn or US codes. Obviously, there is a REASON why they limit 90degree wire of #14 to 15amps, #12 to 20amps, and #10 to 30amps. Anybody who says it can handle anything more is plain WRONG!

Last ESA seminar I went to (early 2012), they said "a mans home is his castle". That means he can do whatever the hell he wants electrically in his own house. They know there is now way they can stop this. If he burns it down, and kills his whole family, that would be his problem for not hiring a qualified electricican. Same concept on a guy who does the brakes on his car, and has no idea what he is doing, and endangers his whole family. How can they enforce this?

ESA considered banning the sale of electrical devices from Home Depot, and every other retailer, but then this would present more problems and people will always find a way to get what they really need to do their own work. So rather, ESA sends people to Home Depot et all, and encourages them to "educate" people, or push the basic wiring books on them so they have a clue, or buy the electrical materials needed and encourage them to hire a qualified contractor.

At the end of the day, you can't fix stupid.


.
 
Just listen to Sunny.

Electrical codes is one thing the guy knows like the back of his cock.
 
nobbie48 said:
I suppose the light switch will have a serial number so the insurance company can trace it back to the factory and verify when it was made and / installed.
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Actually, the wire is dated for that purpose as well as many other parts of the system.


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
 
GDM said:
Seriously guys, hire a qualified contractor. Cheaper than burning the freakin place down. I had 220 installed for my tabel saw and then the same guy back to rewire the entire basement shop - permits all around.

Gerry
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The bottom line is knowing when you're getting in over your head. Changing a light switch is simple. Changing a receptacle is simple except sometimes when the power gets turned back on the breakers trip or two fuses blow. I get asked about that every year or two. Kitchen counter?

Yes ESA is very clear that you can only work on your own home even if the work done elsewhere is for free. If grandma has a broken light switch and can't afford an electrician you can't change it for her. It's better that she falls down the stairs in the dark.

I can see the concern in some ways. In some Pacific rim countries electrical work is considered a free trade. You don't need a licence. If you say you can do it and the other person believes you then you're good to go.

More deaths from bad wiring come from fires not electrocution. A 14/2 running at 20 amps puts out over 2 watts per foot of cable. Tuck that in between some fibergalass bats and see what happens.

BTW A friend from Nevada advised me that their minimum wire gauge is #12 not #14 so know your local rules.
 
01cbr said:
For residential you dont need to use bx you can use romex.

Does this heater require a neutral? If not you only need 10/2.

Your likely not going to find a better price than depot.
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If you use plan on drilling your joists to pull the wire across your basent cieling you would generally use romex.Bx on the other hand can be run exposed along the underside of the joists.Very difficult to pull 10/2 bx through holes in joists so dont use it if you don't have to.As for using 12/2 wire because "somebody who knew what he was doing said it would work" -don't.My father had a buddy who "knew what he was doing" wire up his basement and evrything worked beautifully for.over twenty years until one day the place caught fire.Fortunately,it was later in the morning and we were all awake.If the fire had started an hour or two earlier we would have all died.Not saying that using 12/2 would cause a fire but just something to think about.Just because something works does not mean it's safe, nothing could be further from the truth.
 
ok... i've done some digging and i can find rules about paid work but nothing about unpaid work.
insurance companies have been pushing for "liscenced only" for a long time and I was told it passed.
it's not true and I am wrong.

everything i've said is based on the belief that any electrical is "liscened only". Since that's wrong everything i've said can be disregarded.

nobbie48 said:
Yes ESA is very clear that you can only work on your own home even if the work done elsewhere is for free. If grandma has a broken light switch and can't afford an electrician you can't change it for her.
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can you provide a link for that? I can't find where that's written.

_____________________________________________________
My recomendation for home owners:

Call esa and tell them what you want to do. They will ask questions, and might need to come to your house to see it in person.

They will tell you everything you need to do that will make it code legal and pass.

Then get a permit. Then do the work. When your done call the inspector. When they look at what you've done they will either pass it or tell you what you need to fix.
 
nobbie48 said:
OK so the ESA wants the homeowner to pay $100 + for a permit to change a light switch?

BTW save me the what's your life worth comments. If we buy into every safety rule we will die of stavation.
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CruisnGrrl said:
it says if you change/replace an electrical device.... a light bulb is an electrical device. do i need a permit to change the light bulb and do i have to get the changed light bulb inspected?
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Those rules and suggestions by ESA carry the same weight as the HTA laws that say you can't go 1 km/h over the speed limit, must wear your seat belt at every time, and must signal every single lanechange.

Like good little boys and girls, you guys do all of that all the time, right?
 
SunnY S said:
ESA considered banning the sale of electrical devices from Home Depot, and every other retailer, but then this would present more problems and people will always find a way to get what they really need to do their own work. So rather, ESA sends people to Home Depot et all, and encourages them to "educate" people, or push the basic wiring books on them so they have a clue, or buy the electrical materials needed and encourage them to hire a qualified contractor.
.
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Who do they think they are? TSSA? OSHA? This is getting way out of hand.
 
dasiffy said:
ok... i've done some digging and i can find rules about paid work but nothing about unpaid work.
insurance companies have been pushing for "liscenced only" for a long time and I was told it passed.
it's not true and I am wrong.

everything i've said is based on the belief that any electrical is "liscened only". Since that's wrong everything i've said can be disregarded.

can you provide a link for that? I can't find where that's written.

_____________________________________________________
My recomendation for home owners:

Call esa and tell them what you want to do. They will ask questions, and might need to come to your house to see it in person.

They will tell you everything you need to do that will make it code legal and pass.

Then get a permit. Then do the work. When your done call the inspector. When they look at what you've done they will either pass it or tell you what you need to fix.
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You can stop "digging"....there are electricians here giving real advice.
 
SunnY S said:
Although not government, ESA is given a lot of power from the government as an independent organization.
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Enough power to consider the banning of electrical devices to joe citizen. Great. Electrical union in Chicago in 1920s was able to force into code that all residences must have rigid conduit. Job creation. Just one of hundreds of examples where granted power runs amuck.
 
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