Trials
Well-known member
Toyota:
Your bike is no Toyota. The Toy has roller rockers.
You equate a Ducati to a Fiat ? Seriously ? Of all the Italian cars built :| a Fiat
wtf model Ducati have you been riding?
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ducati issues
- Thread starter bigpoppa
- Start date
Toyota:
Your bike is no Toyota. The Toy has roller rockers.
You equate a Ducati to a Fiat ? Seriously ? Of all the Italian cars built :| a Fiat
wtf model Ducati have you been riding?
Mad Mike
Well-known member
No, I didn't compare Duc to Fiat, I compared the Italian approach to Engineering the Japanese approach.Toyota:
Your bike is no Toyota. The Toy has roller rockers.
You equate a Ducati to a Fiat ? Seriously ? Of all the Italian cars built :| a Fiat
wtf model Ducati have you been riding?
Name one anything designed and built in Italy with a motor that has a reputation for dependability. Now try that for Japan.
Trials
Well-known member
If it has a rubber belt you replace it before it breaks or you have significant engine damage when it does.
If it rides on oil pressure for bearings, you are ****** the moment oil pressure is too low. or dirty.
That's why the Montesa has roller rockers and roller bearing cam shaft, superior performance and ability to withstand low oil pressure riding conditions. If they could leave those bits off to save weight they would.
If it rides on oil pressure for bearings, you are ****** the moment oil pressure is too low. or dirty.
That's why the Montesa has roller rockers and roller bearing cam shaft, superior performance and ability to withstand low oil pressure riding conditions. If they could leave those bits off to save weight they would.
Trials
Well-known member
Do you have one of those stashed out back too?AW109
Ducati is the only engine manufacturer, worldwide, that uses desmodromic valves (mechanically forcing the valves both open and closed without relying on springs - the hairpin spring to take up the clearance to control noise doesn't count).
Even when considering conventional spring-closed valves, there are many different designs and mechanical layouts, and there are pluses and minuses to each.
Among motorcycle engines in general nowadays, the most common arrangement outside of Harley-Davidson is DOHC (dual overhead camshaft) with the camshaft directly opening the valves via "buckets" which contain a little clearance-adjustment shim inside the bucket and on top of the valve stem. To adjust the clearance, the camshaft has to come out, the bucket has to come out in order to get access to that shim and exchange it for a thicker or thinner one. The good thing about this arrangement is that it's as mechanically simple as it gets, and owing to its simplicity, nowadays with engines built using modern materials, they seldom need adjustment. The bad things are that if/when it needs adjustment, it's a pain in the tail because the camshafts (and tensioner(s)) have to come out in order to do it, and the geometry imposes limits on how quickly the valve can be opened or closed because the cam follower (bucket) directly follows the cam lobe without any leverage. (A rocker arm can have a motion ratio because the pivot point need not be in the center.)
The Triumph engines that I have paid attention to (e.g. 675) are like that. I have no idea about the non-sportbike or vintage Triumph engines.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Triumphs for the most part are pretty dependable. They are mostly made in Thailand these days, they do some assembly in the UK
Doesn't count. Uses Pratt & Whitney engines (designed and built in Canada).AW109
Was your question about Italian things that contain engines, or things that contain Italian engines?
I have an assembled-in-Mexico-but-designed-in-Italy thing that contains an assembled-in-USA-but-designed-in-Italy engine. (The engine in question is a Fiat 1.4 MultiAir non-turbo, assembled in Dundee, Michigan.) In 155,000 km, it has had no engine-related issues and as far as I can tell, runs like new. The car it's in has had a couple stupid little things go wrong, but really nothing out of line.
I have seen the Ducati production line, in Bologna. I'm involved in manufacturing ... I know what I'm looking at. Their manufacturing and QC from what I can see are on par with other world-class manufacturers. That wasn't necessarily the case if you go back a number of years. Ducati were cash-starved until the Germans bought them.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
You got me thinking.... the original lead designer of the Monster jumped to Caviga and made the VRaptors using Suzuki DL motors (which kicked the snot out of the Monsters) - maybe that would be a good idea for Ducati?AW109
'kicked the snot out of the monsters?" Um no, not really.
@bigpoppa, i went from a series of Ducati to Triumph, 1050 triple in garage right now, 2008 built in UK not Thailand, so i can speak to the maintenence and cost and duarbility of both, first person experinece . Its pretty much the same. I've never been left on the side of the road. And i follow the manufaturers guidelines for service.
I wish the Triumph dealer was closer, service costs what it costs, expensive toys have higher service costs, you pay to play or dont. Thats why the alternative bikes are made.
@bigpoppa, i went from a series of Ducati to Triumph, 1050 triple in garage right now, 2008 built in UK not Thailand, so i can speak to the maintenence and cost and duarbility of both, first person experinece . Its pretty much the same. I've never been left on the side of the road. And i follow the manufaturers guidelines for service.
I wish the Triumph dealer was closer, service costs what it costs, expensive toys have higher service costs, you pay to play or dont. Thats why the alternative bikes are made.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Not in the marketplace (Caviga-MV-Agusta is not about Marketing), but on the road - yes. It was a b it ugly, but it was also inexpensive and built with dependable components that required little in the way of service. Powerplant and electrics were also universal to Suzuki's TL/DL products, so they were inexpensive and widely available.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Some people get lucky, perhaps that's you. Fiat lives in the basement of J.D. Power’s dependability study with a score of 298 reported problems per 100 vehicles. The 1.4 Fiats had so many clutch and transmission problems that they switched over to Toyota for transmissions.
Not everyone trusts the Internet, but I think if you look at any long term reviews of Fiats it's hard to find anything as pleasant as your experience.
I think mechanical know how also weighs in here. Clearly Brian P has some and that makes minor issues an easy fix. For your average person anything that goes wrong is a trip to the repairman.
Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com mobile app
The other thing is that cars that are frequently bought by new or young drivers tend to get beat on, abused, or neglected. People don't know how to drive a car with a manual transmission, and learn on one of these (and break stuff). A number of other enthusiast cars have the same issue.
There's no question that Fiat has a history of more problems than, say, Toyota. But ... There's roughly a factor of 2 between the best and the worst on JD Power's list (i.e. the low end is about 1.5 problems per vehicle, and the high end is about 3 or 4 problems per vehicle). Their idea of a "problem" nowadays is generally that people can't figure out how to link their phone to the infotainment system, as opposed to the transmission falling out the bottom of the car. I can forgive slightly more niggling nuisances in order to drive something that is moderately interesting, as opposed to (let's say) a Hyundai Accent. I don't want to drive an Accent, or a Yaris, or a Fit. A Corolla would have a major problem if I owned it ... I'd get so bored with it that I'd send it over a cliff.
There's no question that Fiat has a history of more problems than, say, Toyota. But ... There's roughly a factor of 2 between the best and the worst on JD Power's list (i.e. the low end is about 1.5 problems per vehicle, and the high end is about 3 or 4 problems per vehicle). Their idea of a "problem" nowadays is generally that people can't figure out how to link their phone to the infotainment system, as opposed to the transmission falling out the bottom of the car. I can forgive slightly more niggling nuisances in order to drive something that is moderately interesting, as opposed to (let's say) a Hyundai Accent. I don't want to drive an Accent, or a Yaris, or a Fit. A Corolla would have a major problem if I owned it ... I'd get so bored with it that I'd send it over a cliff.
TK4
Well-known member
And likely be able to get back in and drive away.
I wonder how many VW cooling systems and water pumps and heater cores have been destroyed by quickie-lube stations topping up the coolant with the green stuff. VW uses a special coolant with a different and incompatible additive chemistry. It is very good coolant but it must absolutely not be mixed with the traditional stuff. Never had an issue with mine.
I wonder how many VW diesel engines have had their camshafts and lifters destroyed by someone pumping in the same generic 5w30 that they put in every car that goes through. I put 430,000 km on mine and sold it with the original camshafts and lifters because I used the synthetic 5w40 meeting VW specifications that you are supposed to use.
I wonder how many Chrysler (not ZF) automatic transmissions have been destroyed by someone using something other than the special-additive-package Mopar ATF+4 transmission oil that you are supposed to use. The ZF (8 and 9 speed) transmissions want a different oil.
The Chrysler Pentastar V6 engine specifies the use of 5w20 synthetic oil, so that's what I use. They've built millions of those. They have something of a reputation for eating the rollers in their rocker arms (leading to the "Pentastar tick"). If that ever happens to mine, it won't be because I used the wrong oil or neglected changing it.
The Fiat engine doesn't have special requirements, but I still use 5w30 synthetic oil in it. And the old stuff still looks like oil, not black sludge, come time to change it.
Read ... the ... freaking ... manual ...
Wandering back to bikes ...
There is a difference between the "sensible" choice, and the one that actually turns your crank, sparks your interest, etc.
Someone asks "what car should I buy" - buy a Corolla. Is it a good car? Yes, but I'd never buy one. Yawn.
Someone asks "what bike should I buy" - buy a Honda VFR. Is it a good bike? Yes, but I'd never buy one of those, either, and for the same reason ... Yawn!
Is the Ducati an objectively "better" bike than the Honda? Depends what you are asking about. Let's say the answer is "no". Should that make you buy the dull but stone-axe reliable Honda instead of the interesting and character-filled but slightly temperamental Ducati? Only you can answer that. I don't buy a motorcycle in order to be bored with it.
Thus far, all three times where I've been on a rental bike overseas, it has been one of the BMW F800 series. Great rental bike, but I would never buy one!
There is a difference between the "sensible" choice, and the one that actually turns your crank, sparks your interest, etc.
Someone asks "what car should I buy" - buy a Corolla. Is it a good car? Yes, but I'd never buy one. Yawn.
Someone asks "what bike should I buy" - buy a Honda VFR. Is it a good bike? Yes, but I'd never buy one of those, either, and for the same reason ... Yawn!
Is the Ducati an objectively "better" bike than the Honda? Depends what you are asking about. Let's say the answer is "no". Should that make you buy the dull but stone-axe reliable Honda instead of the interesting and character-filled but slightly temperamental Ducati? Only you can answer that. I don't buy a motorcycle in order to be bored with it.
Thus far, all three times where I've been on a rental bike overseas, it has been one of the BMW F800 series. Great rental bike, but I would never buy one!
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