Dougie's latest plan

[bitzz]

And he's gonna get Elon to build it, and somehow... the Mexicans to pay for it
... how bout some mass transit THROUGH the city
... how bout some public housing... REAL public housing (funny thing, when I lived in Vancouver, everyone called public housing Ontario Housing). We used to do public housing a LOT better, we could do with some better thought out public housing
... how bout we fix rail freight in Canada, but the Windsor to Montreal corridor in particular, that way the auto parts can go back on the rails and we Ontarian's can have our highway system back, instead of the auto industry warehousing parts in trailers on the 401. If the auto companies want to use our highways as a warehouse, they can pay for it.
... how bout SOME sort of mass transit anywhere in Ontario other than 100 miles from the lake. We FINALLY got the Northlander train back, returning in 2026... with a pathetic schedule, and astronomical price. There is VERY limited bus service in Ontario north, Ontario used to subsidize northern buses, not anymore, so all the major players went away
If you don't live in a city and don't drive, you're sunk in Ontario. You get to walk to your doctor's appt... OH YEAH, if you live outside of the city, there's a good chance you DON'T have a doctor (but that's another tirade)... so you get to walk to the local ER... OH YEAH, it's closed now (part of that other tirade)... GEEeezzz Dougie, we just went through a "pandemic" and we all got to watch our healthcare system crumble in real time... BUT yeah, we need a tunnel

Dougie... NEWS FLASH: we're supposed to lowering our carbon output, not raising it. Mass transit is one GREAT way of lowering our carbon output. Toronto has a traffic problem and that problem is Toronto Transit sucks large. Implement a strategy that gets people out of car and onto mass transit. Mass transit works in a lot of places outside of North America, I'm pretty sure WE can make it work... but not with pie in the sky Musk inspired pipe dreams... I think what we need is LEADERSHIP, and of which we are lacking.
A FRIGGIN TUNNEL!!!!!!!! What a maroon

 

[Mad Mike]

Depends on the size...a 8-10m diameter machine can have 3-4 lanes going one way on one level, and 3-4 lanes going the opposite way on the different level.

I've also seen smaller tunnel machines (think ECLRT / TYSSE) will allow for movement of 1-2 lanes in each direction at the midpoint. It's also a great way to have new utilities running underneath the roadway as it's a fresh start.

Let's bring Elon's 'The Boring Company' which hasn't delivered anything to date yet.

They recently completed a couple of tunnels in Vegas, the cost was around $10M (US) per mile for a single-lane tunnel, that's about 30% less than the projected cost/mile for the Bradford Bypass.

The Boring Company's machines bored at 1 mile every 8 weeks -- that seems pretty fast. They claim their new smaller machines can hit 1 mile/week at $8M/mile.

I'm guessing environmental studies are easier, no weather challenges, and if you go down 30 or so feet there won't be much in the way of existing wetlands, watercourses and infrastructure to reorganize. Also, you're not tearing up a massive amount of the landscape - trees, endangered frogs and beetles won't be bothered.

 

[GreyGhost]

And he's gonna get Elon to build it, and somehow... the Mexicans to pay for it
... how bout some mass transit THROUGH the city
... how bout some public housing... REAL public housing (funny thing, when I lived in Vancouver, everyone called public housing Ontario Housing). We used to do public housing a LOT better, we could do with some better thought out public housing
... how bout we fix rail freight in Canada, but the Windsor to Montreal corridor in particular, that way the auto parts can go back on the rails and we Ontarian's can have our highway system back, instead of the auto industry warehousing parts in trailers on the 401. If the auto companies want to use our highways as a warehouse, they can pay for it.
... how bout SOME sort of mass transit anywhere in Ontario other than 100 miles from the lake. We FINALLY got the Northlander train back, returning in 2026... with a pathetic schedule, and astronomical price. There is VERY limited bus service in Ontario north, Ontario used to subsidize northern buses, not anymore, so all the major players went away
If you don't live in a city and don't drive, you're sunk in Ontario. You get to walk to your doctor's appt... OH YEAH, if you live outside of the city, there's a good chance you DON'T have a doctor (but that's another tirade)... so you get to walk to the local ER... OH YEAH, it's closed now (part of that other tirade)... GEEeezzz Dougie, we just went through a "pandemic" and we all got to watch our healthcare system crumble in real time... BUT yeah, we need a tunnel

Dougie... NEWS FLASH: we're supposed to lowering our carbon output, not raising it. Mass transit is one GREAT way of lowering our carbon output. Toronto has a traffic problem and that problem is Toronto Transit sucks large. Implement a strategy that gets people out of car and onto mass transit. Mass transit works in a lot of places outside of North America, I'm pretty sure WE can make it work... but not with pie in the sky Musk inspired pipe dreams... I think what we need is LEADERSHIP, and of which we are lacking.
A FRIGGIN TUNNEL!!!!!!!! What a maroon

Functional mass transit requires density. The preferred approach in Ontario of mostly single family homes pretty much destroys viable public transit dreams. Moving forward with stacked-towns (horrible product but at least it achieves some density) or denser along major roads may improve transit viability for those that live in them. The sfh will always drive as the last mile problem is almost unsolvable (it's either a long walk that takes time and effort or you run transit through subdivisions which is slow, rarely used and expensive). Buses along corridors with 4-6 storeys, rail along corridors with 20+ stories and transit can work (and be the preferred mode of transportation).

 

[backmarkerducati]

How about just buying back the 407 and make it free? It HAS to be cheaper than this, it also has room for lane expansion....

 

[GreyGhost]

How about just buying back the 407 and make it free? It HAS to be cheaper than this, it also has room for lane expansion....

It is not in any world cheaper than building a new highway. It is a money tree and buying it back would cost many times more than a new highway. If Ontario picked up the bill for trucks to use 407, that bill would pay for a new highway every five years or less. 99 year leases of public property should be outlawed. 30 years is sufficient for a business cycle. 407 would be back in public hands (or at least re-negotiated which could include free trucks) before 413 would be finished.

 

[backmarkerducati]

It is not in any world cheaper than building a new highway. It is a money tree and buying it back would cost many times more than a new highway. If Ontario picked up the bill for trucks to use 407, that bill would pay for a new highway every five years or less. 99 year leases of public property should be outlawed. 30 years is sufficient for a business cycle. 407 would be back in public hands (or at least re-negotiated which could include free trucks) before 413 would be finished.

I was thinking more in reference (as an alternative) to tunnelling under the 401... 413 would be cheaper than buying the 407 but my guess it will do little for 401 congestion.

 

[mimico_polak]

They recently completed a couple of tunnels in Vegas, the cost was around $10M (US) per mile for a single-lane tunnel, that's about 30% less than the projected cost/mile for the Bradford Bypass.

The Boring Company's machines bored at 1 mile every 8 weeks -- that seems pretty fast. They claim their new smaller machines can hit 1 mile/week at $8M/mile.

I'm guessing environmental studies are easier, no weather challenges, and if you go down 30 or so feet there won't be much in the way of existing wetlands, watercourses and infrastructure to reorganize. Also, you're not tearing up a massive amount of the landscape - trees, endangered frogs and beetles won't be bothered.

Not often I can talk with authority on things around here...but here goes.

Elon built a small tunnel, in easy geology, with an old machine that I (yes me) worked on previously as he bought it used from another contractor I worked with.

The tunnel he built does NOT meet many safety standards (i.e.: no ventilation) that would ever pass around here. Basically if one of the Teslas caught fire...everyone nearby in that tunnel is dead as they don't have emergency exit buildings along that alignment.

Add in utilities, ramps, in/out entrances and exits, actual safety requirements, and dealing with the utilities / MTO above and it's a whole different world. And most importantly let's not forget the history of politicians switching plans, designs, routes, etc for any transit project in this city...it's a whole different world.

In addition, look into other cities where Elon made massive promises to build out their infrastructure, the municipalities cancelled their transit expansion plans, and then Elon 'forgot' about them...it was only to stop their transportation expansion plans....nothing else.

He promised to make tunneling more efficient, and his efficiency is basically to ignore safety and standard regulations...thanks but no thanks.

 

[GreyGhost]

I was think more in reference (as an alternative) to tunnelling under the 401... 413 would be cheaper than buying the 407 but my guess it will do little for 401 congestion.

Like I said, if part of the 401 project includes development over the top, it may actually make money. If it just adds more lanes of traffic, it will be a dumpster fire.

 

[GreyGhost]

He promised to make tunneling more efficient, and his efficiency is basically to ignore safety and standard regulations...thanks but no thanks.

So basically tunneling Oceangate. It worked out really well under water. Definitely a model to be emulated. Musk does have a lot of the same comments and ideals as Rush constantly complaining about "rules" stifling innovation. If everyone else uses a metal sphere and nobody ever used a carbon tube because of the epic level of inherent danger, yolo and use the tube while giving everyone else the finger.

 

[mimico_polak]

So basically tunneling Oceangate. It worked out really well under water. Definitely a model to be emulated. Musk does have a lot of the same comments and ideals as Rush constantly complaining about "rules" stifling innovation. If everyone else uses a metal sphere and nobody every used a carbon tube because of the epic level of inherent danger, yolo and use the tube while giving everyone else the finger.

He is the laughing stock of the tunneling world...and I know a handful of guys working there and they all said the same thing '$hit$how'...but they get paid well so they enjoy it while the train keeps chugging along.

EDIT: Funny anecdote:

Elon shows up at the launch of the tunneling operations in flip flops and no PPE. Safety guy tells him 'Sir you can't go on the site without XYZ'.

'Do you know who I am?'
'Yes I do, but I'm in charge of safety and you're not going onto the site dressed like that'

Elon turned around, jumped in his car, and went home.

Whether true or not, not sure...but this was nothing but a pet project for him.

Maybe he should focus on building electric cars and the infrastructure instead of over promising and under delivering.

 

[Evoex]

He is the laughing stock of the tunneling world...and I know a handful of guys working there and they all said the same thing '$hit$how'...but they get paid well so they enjoy it while the train keeps chugging along.

EDIT: Funny anecdote:

Elon shows up at the launch of the tunneling operations in flip flops and no PPE. Safety guy tells him 'Sir you can't go on the site without XYZ'.

'Do you know who I am?'
'Yes I do, but I'm in charge of safety and you're not going onto the site dressed like that'

Elon turned around, jumped in his car, and went home.

Whether true or not, not sure...but this was nothing but a pet project for him.

Maybe he should focus on building electric cars and the infrastructure instead of over promising and under delivering.

anyone in Tier 1 whose worked with Tesla knows what a nightmare they are as a customer. coloured me surprised it transcends into his other ventures.

 

[nobbie48]

1) Going on top, what happened the Gardiner east of Leslie?

2) No way in hell am I driving in a tunnel anyway near a driver from Brampton especially if they’re driving an electric. The single most realistic thing Ford could do is make drivers training so tough it is considered an earned (and unearnable) privilege, not a god given right.

3) Part of the 407 agreement was a non competition clause or anything that would affect profits. The provincials signed that but did Ottawa? Time for JT to step up and build TransCanada South. The remnants of SNC Lavalin can do the engineering keeping the profits in liberal pockets

4) Since we’re talking silly there’s the Hamilton to Scarborough causeway idea

5) Personal drones anyone?

 

[GreyGhost]

3) Part of the 407 agreement was a non competition clause or anything that would affect profits. The provincials signed that but did Ottawa? Time for JT to step up and build TransCanada South. The remnants of SNC Lavalin can do the engineering keeping the profits in liberal pockets

Feds seem to be completely unable to spend money on anything with a measurable outcome. They can't think about building a highway as that turns money into something tangible and all of their policies are completely focused on turning money into smoke.

 

[Mad Mike]

... how bout some mass transit THROUGH the city

Good use of tunnels. If Elon can dig tunnels for $10M/lane, Id say bring it on.

... how bout some public housing... REAL public housing (funny thing, when I lived in Vancouver, everyone called public housing Ontario Housing). We used to do public housing a LOT better, we could do with some better thought out public housing

This is another issue that's a bit more complicated. The original intent of public housing was to provide transitional rent-geared-to-income for a period so low and moderate-income families could transition to open market housing. Once relatively safe as self managed communities, public housing became a final destination as community attitudes and values changed. Projects struggle with excessive drug use, violence, gangs, and crime in general. Low academic achievement, high levels of teenage pregnancy, and too few willing to work on bettering their overall situation contribute to high levels of intergenerational poverty. Building more hasn't helped families out of poverty -- it's just given them a lousy place to endure it.

... how bout we fix rail freight in Canada, but the Windsor to Montreal corridor in particular, that way the auto parts can go back on the rails and we Ontarian's can have our highway system back, instead of the auto industry warehousing parts in trailers on the 401. If the auto companies want to use our highways as a warehouse, they can pay for it.

Great idea. Roll-on, roll-off truck ports in Windsor, Oakville and Montreal would be great.

... how bout SOME sort of mass transit anywhere in Ontario other than 100 miles from the lake. We FINALLY got the Northlander train back, returning in 2026... with a pathetic schedule, and astronomical price. There is VERY limited bus service in Ontario north, Ontario used to subsidize northern buses, not anymore, so all the major players went away

Agree. We need a network of small, frequent trains running across the province - like the GTA GO Service. Connect the small centers along HWY's 7 between London and Ottawa, and 11 between Toronto and Hearst.

If you don't live in a city and don't drive, you're sunk in Ontario. You get to walk to your doctor's appt... OH YEAH, if you live outside of the city, there's a good chance you DON'T have a doctor (but that's another tirade)... so you get to walk to the local ER... OH YEAH, it's closed now (part of that other tirade)... GEEeezzz Dougie, we just went through a "pandemic" and we all got to watch our healthcare system crumble in real time... BUT yeah, we need a tunnel

That's another complex problem. A gov't can open the border and grow the population at any speed they want. Building transportation networks, houses, and hospitals or increasing the number of public health care providers isn't as quick and easy.

Dougie... NEWS FLASH: we're supposed to lowering our carbon output, not raising it. Mass transit is one GREAT way of lowering our carbon output. Toronto has a traffic problem and that problem is Toronto Transit sucks large. Implement a strategy that gets people out of car and onto mass transit. Mass transit works in a lot of places outside of North America, I'm pretty sure WE can make it work... but not with pie in the sky Musk inspired pipe dreams... I think what we need is LEADERSHIP, and of which we are lacking.
A FRIGGIN TUNNEL!!!!!!!! What a maroon

There are lots of ways to speed up travel while reducing carbon footprint -- Im not sure we have the common sense to do that in Gov. I've mentioned the example in my hood a few times before, it's the way the gov't thinks.

In my hood, they reduced arterial speeds by 10kmh, eliminated a lot of right-on reds, and desynchronized traffic signals to calm traffic speeds. The result is massive congestion, lost travel time, and probably a doubling or more in greenhouse gas. My little car uses 4.8l/100km at 70kmh, if you stop me, every 1.5km, that goes up to 14l/100km (my actual numbers traversing 16th Ave from Markham Rd to 404).

Remember, tunnels are great for subways.

 

[bitzz]

Functional mass transit requires density.

All Public transit requires subsidy, there is no such thing as profitable public transit.
Public transit is a SERVICE
Ontario population is 14.5-15 million, 10-10.5 million in the golden horseshoe/401 corridor that get crappy public/mass transportation
The other 4-5 million, a third, of us can pound sand?
There's a German bus company coming to Ontario, that thinks they can make a go of it, by venturing OFF the 401. I wish them luck

True story: there was a train line in Japan they were going to close, cuz it was a money loser... till they found out here was this one little girl that took the train to school every day. They kept the train going twice a day till the little girl graduated.

 

[Mad Mike]

Not often I can talk with authority on things around here...but here goes.

Elon built a small tunnel, in easy geology, with an old machine that I (yes me) worked on previously as he bought it used from another contractor I worked with.

The tunnel he built does NOT meet many safety standards (i.e.: no ventilation) that would ever pass around here. Basically if one of the Teslas caught fire...everyone nearby in that tunnel is dead as they don't have emergency exit buildings along that alignment.

Add in utilities, ramps, in/out entrances and exits, actual safety requirements, and dealing with the utilities / MTO above and it's a whole different world. And most importantly let's not forget the history of politicians switching plans, designs, routes, etc for any transit project in this city...it's a whole different world.

In addition, look into other cities where Elon made massive promises to build out their infrastructure, the municipalities cancelled their transit expansion plans, and then Elon 'forgot' about them...it was only to stop their transportation expansion plans....nothing else.

He promised to make tunneling more efficient, and his efficiency is basically to ignore safety and standard regulations...thanks but no thanks.

Is that the tunnel in Vegas?

 

[Mad Mike]

All Public transit requires subsidy, there is no such thing as profitable public transit.

Yes, it does.

Public transit is a SERVICE

Yup. But not an entitlement. Public services need to strike a balance between user benefit and taxpayer benefit. Sometimes that needs density.

Ontario population is 14.5-15 million, 10-10.5 million in the golden horseshoe/401 corridor that get crappy public/mass transportation
The other 4-5 million, a third, of us can pound sand?

That’s how most public services work. Your not gettin a Children’s hospital in South River just because TO, Ottawa, Hamilton and London have one.

There's a German bus company coming to Ontario, that thinks they can make a go of it, by venturing OFF the 401. I wish them luck

That’s exciting. I love using busses and trains for long distance travel. I can’t wait till the Northlander starts up - I’ll hop on 10 minutes from my office, and get off within 100m of my house in Timmins.

True story: there was a train line in Japan they were going to close, cuz it was a money loser... till they found out here was this one little girl that took the train to school every day. They kept the train going ..

Not sure I’d expect this, but I would support funding money losing routes when it’s in the public interest.

 

[mimico_polak]

Is that the tunnel in Vegas?

Yes it is. The Tesla only tunnel between locations. They added in some small fans for ventilation.

We have very strict requirements. Every X meters you need a structure that allows a fully loaded train to be emptied in an emergency.

Every Y meters you need a massive ventilation shaft which is about 70% of a station.

This is one of the reasons Scarborough Subway Extension went from a 1 stop to a 3 stop. First off 1 stop to replace the SRT was stupid, and second the vent shafts were so large that it made sense to make them into stations.

 

[GreyGhost]

Yes, it does.

Yup. But not an entitlement. Public services need to strike a balance between user benefit and taxpayer benefit. Sometimes that needs density.

That’s how most public services work. Your not gettin a Children’s hospital in South River just because TO, Ottawa, Hamilton and London have one.

That’s exciting. I love using busses and trains for long distance travel. I can’t wait till the Northlander starts up - I’ll hop on 10 minutes from my office, and get off within 100m of my house in Timmins.

Not sure I’d expect this, but I would support funding money losing routes when it’s in the public interest.

Exactly, it's about balance. The last time I looked at numbers, York region trip was 3.xx for the user and 6.xx for the taxpayer. Every single trip. Yikes.

 

[Mad Mike]

Exactly, it's about balance. The last time I looked at numbers, York region trip was 3.xx for the user and 6.xx for the taxpayer. Every single trip. Yikes.

The York Region transit system is a bit of a joke. They run a fleet of massive (and expensive) articulating busses to carry a handful of passengers. They have their own bus lanes , a ton of real estate that horribly congests traffic along hey 7 and Yonge street.

In the old days they ran mini busses that could hit more small streets. It worked, probably moved the same number of travellers, and cost a fraction of what Viva costs taxpayers.