Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

[Rob MacLennan]

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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I'm curious though, and I'm sure there lots of opinions out there. I'm hopeful there may be some experience too (but not personal!): at a direct impact into the side of vehicle at 140 or more, wouldn't the damage have been even greater? Remember way back when the bike (v-max?) hit a car on Scarborough Golf Club Rd? I know it wasn't a big crown vic, but the damage appeared to be significantly greater than what this cruiser sustained, which why I wonder about the angle.

I'm no crash scene investigator but it appears that the bike impacted the car at one of the most reinforced points. Not only does the point between the doors have the backing of the central pillar support, but also the prisoner cage and frame separating the front from the back.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

You keep referring that the SIU didn't "know the intent of the officer" The report is based on the officer's intent but rather what the evidence showed them to be the case, (which clearly shows the office was in the midst of completing a U Turn, (again this was verifiable by the black box data). If it showed he was stationary across the road for a period of time, then that is a different animal altogether. But the evidence doesn't substantiate, nor support it.

The only thing the SIU was left to consider that they didn't get a definitive answer to was how the officer checked the roadway for approaching vehicles, however, based upon their measurements and the speed oif the bike the investigators and the crowns who would have been consulted determined his actions were those of a "reasonable person".

Because reiterating over and over again ad nauseam to no apparent effect is de rigueur. I think this discussion has been civil by typical internet standards. Altho, like the cop, you never really know intent.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

So what would be the evidence that would satisfy you?? Do you expect the SIU to give you access to the black box information. A vehicle black box, much like an aircraft's black box contains many many pieces of data not just the speed of the vehicle and travel of direction. You already have the "evidence" you merely chose to ignore it, so let me recap it for you.

The cruiser was traveling at 25 km/h "when it was hit" so tell me how does a vehicle "block" a roadway, (which suggests it had come to stop and was "sitting' blocking the road). That is one magical cruiser to be in the process of completing a u turn at 25 km and stopped at the same time. Now you will say how do "we" know it was moving, because that is what the family reported to DVS Bullet who then posted it here.

Now how do we know the crusier was making a U turn again the Black Box would have shown this, (remembering the data from the black box is NOT handled by the investigators but rather technical experts). the black box would have recorded EVERYTHING about the cruiser pre, during and POST collision). This would also explain somewhat why the cruiser came to it's final resting place if the front wheels were turned and the cruiser was hit mid point it would have spun, some but also likely also "rolled" forward, before it stopped. Again EVERYTHING would have been recorded, as the black box is designed to continue to record post collision.

Of course you will "continue to believe his intent was to block the road" despite the laws of physics and the EVIDENCE the SIu gathered and you have not seen because again that wouldn't fit with your "discipline the officer" conclusions.

It is quite possible for a vehicle to be moving and blocking the road. I'm a trucker, don't tell me this isn't possible. To put words in my mouth, then to argue against those words is rediculous.

I am fully aware that the data recorders would most likely clearly show vehicle movements. Can you please tell me how they would record the officer's thoughts and know what he intended to do? He successfully blocked the roadway, I will continue to believe that is what his intent was unles the officers notes show otherwise.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

The SIU report was written after having looked at ALL the evidence it isn't based "upon a former police officer's opinion" everyone, (including the technical experts), provide input into the final report.

There is no "threshold" in the terms of a estimate of a conviction. normally the investigators meet with the crown assigned to them, and they present all their evidence, including technical data, drawings, videos etc. In a case as involved as this, they would have first likely submitted it to the crown then set up a meeting for a few days/weeks later. This would give the crown an option to study the evidence, it would be highly likely that more than one crown, and perhaps a few clerks all would have reviewed it and discussed it then advised the investigators if there was enough evidence to support a charge, (based upon their experience). It certainly isn't based on "that the events likely occurred", but the actual evidence and what it shows occurred. It is also based upon if they feel they can convince a court "beyond a reasonable doubt" Given that in this case the u turn in and of itself was not illegal they would have had to lay a charge like criminal negligence causing death, or perhaps dangerous driving causing death. Which I agree likley wouldn't have led to a conviction.

Thank you. I appreciate your input here. Seriously.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

In this case it would have been completely reasonable. Based on the sight line there would have appeared to be tons of time to make a U-turn.

Thank you. I was more asking if you as a reasonable person would make that move considering the conditions the SIU describe, but I appreciate your input just the same.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Wow - after all the opinions, calculations and even some civil discussion we've gone right back to the discussion of June 15 - speculation and accusation.

A few posters keep repeating the question "would you have made the U-Turn in that position at the time in those circumstances".
How many of us can picture ourselves at that time in a police cruiser responding to a call?
...but the best one is, "would you have made that u-turn in front of a speeding motorcycle?" Where, in what available form, have we seen that the officer saw the motorcycle and turned in front of it? I don't think we have, so even if we all answer "no, probably not" it's irrelevant. If he didn't see it, should he have expected something to suddenly come into view at over 150kmh? That's the standard of reasonableness. We often hear "drive like everyone else is out to kill you". Nice notion, but we can't actually assume that every single motorist on the road is not going act generally within the law. We simply have to watch to ensure our safety. However, we need to make reasonable assumptions based on certain things: our experience and abilities, our observations at the time, and the law being a few significant ones.
Unless we know for a fact that the officer saw the bike and decided to execute the turn, I think MOST of the argument against the officer is pointless. If we know he saw the bike and misjudged its speed, then we can imagine how difficult it was to determine the speed and speculate as to whether it was appropriate.

As for the point of impact, we didn't get the benefit of the officer's testimony, but we do at least have a statement that the cruiser was travelling at 25kmh. With the rampant speculation in the thread can we not imagine that perhaps the impact wasn't "exactly" head on, nose-to-nose? That the officer either almost completed the turn, or had started accelerating out of the turn and swerved when he actually saw the bike? There was similar speculation back in June...
I'm curious though, and I'm sure there lots of opinions out there. I'm hopeful there may be some experience too (but not personal!): at a direct impact into the side of vehicle at 140 or more, wouldn't the damage have been even greater? Remember way back when the bike (v-max?) hit a car on Scarborough Golf Club Rd? I know it wasn't a big crown vic, but the damage appeared to be significantly greater than what this cruiser sustained, which why I wonder about the angle.

I don't think any opinion are going to change at this point. It seems none of the examples, relevant or not, have done anything to persuade one to change their mind or to put any more trust in the system.

A great well thought out post. Your attention to this situation is admirable.

I ask,
"Would you as a reasonable person, attempt a UTurn in front of a speeding motorcycle, in poor lighting, and with possible obstructions due to construction? Or would you as a reasonable person choose another place to turn around or wait for the motorcycle to pass?",
because that is what the SIU based their conclusion on in their statement.

 

[FitzR6]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I am fully aware that the data recorders would most likely clearly show vehicle movements. Can you please tell me how they would record the officer's thoughts and know what he intended to do? He successfully blocked the roadway, I will continue to believe that is what his intent was unless the officers notes show otherwise.

This may of been cops intent but take into account all variables ie. Speed of rider, construction zone, lighting /visibility

Rider was speeding well over speed limit in a construction zone, cop made a quick decision (wrong or right). If rider was doing lets say 80kms or under, there would of been more reaction time for him and the cop and maybe, just maybe he would still be alive.

Rider did not take precautions to be safe while riding through construction zone, at night and did not pay mind to the speed limit. Ultimately his fault, cop was just the icing on the cake that sealed his fate.

Still a tragedy anytime a rider is lost. RIP.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

This exactly. Same if you broad side a smart car as opposed to a tractor rig the car is going to exhibit greater damage. Again simple physics. the "prisioner partition" is also constructed similar to a roll bar.

I'm no crash scene investigator but it appears that the bike impacted the car at one of the most reinforced points. Not only does the point between the doors have the backing of the central pillar support, but also the prisoner cage and frame separating the front from the back.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Can I ask the original poster to edit the thread title and spell the name of the rider correctly please? Out of respect for the deceased.

 

[ddusseld]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Actually, Thank you. We are clearly on the total opposite spectrum of belief yet you continue to be polite and reasonable about things. Not exactly a GTAM signature move.. As others have pointed out I'd say without some other evidence coming forward the various "camps" are pretty much set and not likely to be swayed in a different direction.

Thank you. I was more asking if you as a reasonable person would make that move considering the conditions the SIU describe, but I appreciate your input just the same.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

But AGAIN your assuming the officer saw the bike coming there is NO evidence of this occurring so your assumption is invalid Courts of law only deal in facts not assumptions. The SIU stated that the officer did what ANY REASONABLE person would do in the same circumstance. How can the officer "wait for the vehicle to pass when he has no opportunity to know the vehicle is even there due to the HIGH RATE OF SPEED of this vehicle.

The experts, (investigators and crown), have determined what the officer did met "what a reasonable person would have done" Therefore the answer is YES a reasonable person in the SAME circumstances would have likely done the same thing and the result would have still been a dead rider. If you wouldn't have made that turn the good for you you are better than most reasonable people. but it WASN'T but if it were I guess we can assume you would have DEMANDED the investigators, to charge you as obviously your guilty and "need to be disciplined" and "see your day in court".


Emefef: we actually DO know the cruiser was making a U turn this has been discussed at length the SIU and the technical experts, looked at the cruisers black box and the GPS data from the cruiser which indicated the cruiser was indeed making a U Turn there is no disputing the ACTUAL evidence and "creating" an alternative theory and universe in which it happened. As for the 25 km/h point, this was actually never released by the SIU but rather was stated in this thread by DVS Bullet, (Clayton's friend).

A great well thought out post. Your attention to this situation is admirable.

I ask,
"Would you as a reasonable person, attempt a UTurn in front of a speeding motorcycle, in poor lighting, and with possible obstructions due to construction? Or would you as a reasonable person choose another place to turn around or wait for the motorcycle to pass?",
because that is what the SIU based their conclusion on in their statement.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I think this may have to be done by Forum staff. Most forums allow user edits only for as period of time, after that time period the staff have to make the edit..

But finally we agree on something... lol I have been bothered by this as well. Kudos for the request hopefully it gets done.

Can I ask the original poster to edit the thread title and spell the name of the rider correctly please? Out of respect for the deceased.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Done, but unfortunately that cannot trickle down to the various individual posts.

Why on earth is this thread still going on?
There are 2 camps of people here, and absolutely nobody is going to change sides and have drawn their own conclusions with the information that is currently available.

Camp A: Completely officer's fault 'cause he obviously wanted to kill the rider by blocking the road
Camp B: Fault is split, as the officer shouldn't have made the U-Turn without making certain the roadway was clear behind him, and the the rider is partially at fault due to excessive speed that nobody in their right mind would expect.

So why not agree to disagree and call it a day?

Camp C: Those who think that the actions of the officer were reasonable, but took place in an unreasonable situation.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Done, but unfortunately that cannot trickle down to the various individual posts.



Camp C: Those who think that the actions of the officer were reasonable, but took place in an unreasonable situation.

Thanks for the correction in thread title, but it's still wrong.

Oh and Camp D: those who believe for whatever reason the officer blocked the road, they acted unreasonably.

 

[Baggsy]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

May I ask if a reasonable person would slow down if they saw a police car?

 

[jc100]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

May I ask if a reasonable person would slow down if they saw a police car?

No, that's obviously an unreasonable request.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

May I ask if a reasonable person would slow down if they saw a police car?

Yup. I believe that would be a reasonable decision to make. The SIU release and the skid mark on the road indicate that's exactly what the rider did.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I didn't say the cruiser wasn't across the road while doing his u turn BUT there is a huge difference between being across the road while performing a U turn, and blocking the road. A REASONABLE person would interpret "blocking the road" as a deliberate attempt by being stationary. There simply exists NO evidence of this no matter how you try to create this "illusion" The GPS data showed otherwise.

Now really to you as trucker do you normally leave "skid marks" while trying to SLOW DOWN, or would you generally only leave them while attempting a panic type of stop? Normally when I SLOW DOWN when I see a cruiser I have NEVER EVER left skid marks.

Yup. I believe that would be a reasonable decision to make. The SIU release and the skid mark on the road indicate that's exactly what the rider did.

 

[jc100]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Yup. I believe that would be a reasonable decision to make. The SIU release and the skid mark on the road indicate that's exactly what the rider did.

Skid marks could suggest quite a few things. Over riding lights is one.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I didn't say the cruiser wasn't across the road while doing his u turn BUT there is a huge difference between being across the road while performing a U turn, and blocking the road. A REASONABLE person would interpret "blocking the road" as a deliberate attempt by being stationary. There simply exists NO evidence of this no matter how you try to create this "illusion" The GPS data showed otherwise.

Now really to you as trucker do you normally leave "skid marks" while trying to SLOW DOWN, or would you generally only leave them while attempting a panic type of stop? Normally when I SLOW DOWN when I see a cruiser I have NEVER EVER left skid marks.

Really? I'm trying to create an illusion that the car was blocking the road? You can call it "across the road" or "blocking". Doesn't matter to me. We both understand what it means. I'm sure any other reasonable person would also understand the meaning.

Me as a trucker I rarely lay rubber. I did get cut off earlier this week and had one axle lock up and flat spotted 2 tires. It happens.

I would have to say that applying the brakes hard enough to lay rubber, is a pretty solid attempt to slow down.

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