Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation. | Page 31 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

But again using logic and the laws of movement, time and space, had Clayton not been doing 154 Km/h he NEVER would have been in the place at that time, ergo NO COLLISION. This is what makes his speed a MAJOR contributing factor. So if he HAD been doing the speed limit he would have never been in a collision.

Alright you have used this or similar reference a few times now. Seriously? What does this have to do with anything? Yup if he had of been held up by one more red light during his long evening ride, he wouldn't have been there at that time. If he was speeding at 4X the speed limit he wouldn't have been there at that time.

I am trying to remain civil with you, but this kind of nonsense is testing me.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I believe you may have misinterpreted the context of what we were saying.

I believe you are also missing the context of the majority of posts on here, including your own.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Because YOU keep saying the officer was AT FAULT ... No if Clayton wasn't riding like a ********* at TWICE the legal limit WELL beyond his abilities and WELL beyond his head lights.. He WOULD have:

Seen the cruisers brake lights come on as the officer slowed to make the u turn; after all YOU are saying the officer "should have seen him" so why is it Clayton gets a TOTAL pass on not seeing the cruiser????
Would have seen the cruiser pull to the right past the barriers, (remembering he was familiar with this are and the construction);
he would have slowed further not knowing what dangers may have been laying ahead, (maybe I am just an experienced rider but when I see a car pull to the right I ASSUME, they may pull in front of me or make some other, (in my mind bone headed move). Now I am willing to accept Clayton was a good experienced rider from the posts here;
if not for his EXCESSIVE speed, he would not have been there, therefore NO collision.

If you can't understand the laws of movement, time and position, then it is fruitless explaining to you why there would have been NO collision but for Clayton's speed. It was Clayton's speed alone that placed him there at that moment in time had he been traveling at even 20 km/h over the limit it would have given him a MUCH greater time to react and observed what was happening in front of him. THAT IS WHAT HIS SPEED HAS TO DO with the collision.


The officer did NOTHING illegal, (based upon a review of all the evidence, as examined by the EXPERTS), and based on the legislation as it is written today?


Alright you have used this or similar reference a few times now. Seriously? What does this have to do with anything? Yup if he had of been held up by one more red light during his long evening ride, he wouldn't have been there at that time. If he was speeding at 4X the speed limit he wouldn't have been there at that time.

I am trying to remain civil with you, but this kind of nonsense is testing me.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

So zero(0) chance cop did anything wrong/judgement error per former cop who was not there. Check.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

You have no facts to support your "THEORY" other than YOU determined even BEFORE an investigation was commenced that the officer was guilty, and "needed to be disciplined"

My posts are based on the evidence, and the current legislation and what is considered "legal" and illegal for the purposes of a conviction.

I take issue with your attempts to minimize the actions of Clayton, no he wasn't trying to "slow" he was trying to come to a full panic stop to characterize it any other way is ludicrous and willfully blind to the obvious

I believe you are also missing the context of the majority of posts on here, including your own.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Umm, you can spin things all you want, but someome had asked if the rider should have slowed down when seeing the officer. Yes, the rider absolutely did. And yes he was trying to slow down very quickly, sure call it a panic stop------>A CAR JUST PULLED RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM.

Slowing down is slowing down. It's a process that turns kinetic energy into heat energy. If you are confused about this I will gladly google some references for you, but I do believe despite your long winded post that makes you appear confused, that you really do understand the intent of things being said here.

When I locked my brakes(was only one axle,not that it matters) I was attempting to slow down, stopping would have been a poor decision, I was on 410 in traffic. I was not brake checked, if I was that would have been me 100% driving without care. What happened was a car passed me on the right in the merge lane(nothing wrong with that), then quickly turned left in front of me and hit the brakes. I'd say she went from 100km/hr to25km/hr. Not too sure what her intent was, but she was holding a phone to her ear with her right hand.

Some people may believe brakes are only for stopping, but they do a pretty good job at reducing speed as well. I know I can drive a truck almost all day and maybe never use the brakes to stop once, I also can run an entire race on my motorcycle and brake extrememly hard over and over again- and not come to a stop at all.

Pure supposition that a car just pulled in front of him. At that speed and at night it's also highly likely he only saw the car at the last moment. If you speed round a corner and then hit an obstruction, you can't say the obstruction suddenly was there and a moment before it was not.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Again read my posts, did you not see when I said was the turn the "best option" given the circumstances. BUT that doesn't make it illegal. A person can do lots of things which aren't the best option but are still not illegal. You can drive, (if you had a large enough property across your own lawn at 100 km/h). But that isn't illegal. I was asked to provide idea of "what is likely to have happened" I did this about 10 pages ago. i stated clearly I doubt the officer EVER saw Clayton. But I also said there could be factors including the construction euipment, as well as the rate of speed may have made it more difficult to see, not to mention the officer was "likely", (I used that term as I can't say if he even checked as I like everyone else here wasn't in the cruiser with him), using his rear view mirors. Whereas Clayton should have a cleared view as he was looking straight ahead. Now I am hoping we can all agree the person looking ahead has a much better line of sight than a person relying upon their mirror(s).

In terms of strict legalities, and the prospect of a conviction, it was determined he didn't do anything illegal. I also said if you look back said weather what he did makes him "responsible" will have to be determined at a civil trial. These are two VERY different things, and my position on both has remained the same despite all the "what if's, reverse role playing, speculation, as well as the attempts to minimize how Clayton's action's contributed. Not to mention the attempts to remove any "responsibility" from Clayton to have been riding responsibly, and within the laws, while maintaining a level of care in regards to other road users.


So zero(0) chance cop did anything wrong/judgement error per former cop who was not there. Check.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Ahh ok, so fine then. All the skid marks I see on the roads must all belong to vehicles who were surprised by other things. None of them could ever belong to vehicles who were going too fast to react in time to changing road conditions or to something they couldn't see while overdriving their lights. Glad we sorted that out.

Some could be from the driver of the vehicle leaving marks acting unreasonably. I just wouldn't go as far so to say that is always or often the case.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Back to the incident under discussion. 25 km/h is about 7 metres per second, more than one car length. If the car was going 25 km/h at the time, it could have been as little as one second-ish, maybe a second and a half, between the time that the car was on the side of the road, parallel to the traffic lane but off to the side, and when it was across the road blocking the lanes. If the police officer had pulled that U-turn without looking (which is my contention), then even if Clayton had been at the speed limit he would not have been able to stop in that time.

Couldn't agree more. Except whether or not the officer looked,saw the bike or not, the officer acted unreasonably regardless of the speed of the motorcycle. I once said in another post that if I was on the bike and not speeding, I would of had to take evassive/defensive action as well.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

(maybe I am just an experienced rider but when I see a car pull to the right I ASSUME, they may pull in front of me or make some other, (in my mind bone headed move).

Thank you. In your mind would this "bone headed move" also be considered unreasonable?
 
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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Again read my posts, did you not see when I said was the turn the "best option" given the circumstances. BUT that doesn't make it illegal. A person can do lots of things which aren't the best option but are still not illegal. You can drive, (if you had a large enough property across your own lawn at 100 km/h). But that isn't illegal. I was asked to provide idea of "what is likely to have happened" I did this about 10 pages ago. i stated clearly I doubt the officer EVER saw Clayton. But I also said there could be factors including the construction euipment, as well as the rate of speed may have made it more difficult to see, not to mention the officer was "likely", (I used that term as I can't say if he even checked as I like everyone else here wasn't in the cruiser with him), using his rear view mirors. Whereas Clayton should have a cleared view as he was looking straight ahead. Now I am hoping we can all agree the person looking ahead has a much better line of sight than a person relying upon their mirror(s).

In terms of strict legalities, and the prospect of a conviction, it was determined he didn't do anything illegal. I also said if you look back said weather what he did makes him "responsible" will have to be determined at a civil trial. These are two VERY different things, and my position on both has remained the same despite all the "what if's, reverse role playing, speculation, as well as the attempts to minimize how Clayton's action's contributed. Not to mention the attempts to remove any "responsibility" from Clayton to have been riding responsibly, and within the laws, while maintaining a level of care in regards to other road users.

Yup. Clay was speeding. Thanks for clarifying yet again. No one here is contesting the speed.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

But again using logic and the laws of movement, time and space, had Clayton not been doing 154 Km/h he NEVER would have been in the place at that time, ergo NO COLLISION. This is what makes his speed a MAJOR contributing factor. So if he HAD been doing the speed limit he would have never been in a collision.

I've left this alone up until now, but that is not the way collision investigations are supposed to work. Using this logic, all of our traffic safety problems could be solved if the parties involved each left home two or three seconds before, or two or three seconds after, because then they would all arrive at the collision point a couple seconds apart instead of getting there at the same time.

It doesn't work that way. Take the time of impact, change one of the facts, and back up in time from the time of impact and THEN see if there is an impact.

My contention is that the officer never looked (properly) for approaching traffic prior to making that U-turn. Assume for the moment that it took 1.5 seconds between when the car was parallel to the traffic lane but off to the side (tucked in behind the construction barrier), and when it was perpendicular and blocking both lanes. Back up that 1.5 seconds. Is Clayton able to avoid the collision? At 150 km/h ... clearly not. At 80 km/h ... No! It may have taken 0.5 to 1.0 seconds for his brain to process that the car that he may have seen stopped up ahead, has now moved and is blocking his path. At 1 g deceleration it's going to take about 2.5 seconds to stop and that's assuming perfect traction conditions, which are unlikely in a construction zone. At 60 km/h (My own collision scenario) can he stop? NO! 0.5 to 1.0 seconds reaction time, around 2 seconds to stop ... I'd estimate that I hit the car at between 20 and 30 km/h.

So knock off the statement that "he wouldn't have been in that place and time", because even if he had been at the posted speed limit, the collision could very well have happened anyhow. I've been there.

What happened before that fateful second and a half that it took the car to go from parallel/beside the road, to blocking the road?

Perhaps the construction barrier was higher than a Crown Victoria's taillights, blocking line of sight so it was not visible to Clayton (and likewise, Clayton's headlight would not have been visible). If that was the case - the officer made an illegal U-turn.

Perhaps the construction barrier was NOT higher than taillights. Clayton would have been able to see the taillights. We'll never know what he thought, but he may have passed them off as simply a car parked at the side of the road. Likewise, if the construction barriers were that low, the bike's headlight should have been in line of sight to the officer's mirrors. That opens up the discussion about when the officer checked those mirrors. If he checked immediately before doing the U-turn (we're assuming 1.5 seconds prior to impact) at 60 km/h Clayton would have been 25 metres away, at 150 km/h he would have been about 60 metres away. Not very far. If the cop car slowed down from some speed (presumably 60 km/h construction zone) to 25 km/h, that would have taken a couple of seconds ... but that would have had the cop car in the same lane as the rapidly-approaching Clayton, who ought to have seen the tail and brake lamps; why he did not react by slowing down, we'll never know ... but the alternate explanation is that the cop car had been sitting stopped at the side of the road the whole time, and only pulled out as Clayton approached.

If we change one fact (cut Clayton's speed in half) but don't change the other (cop pulling out in front of him), back up a couple seconds from the point of impact, there is still a crash scenario if the timing is wrong (the severity will be a lot lower but there's still a crash). If we change another fact (have the cop bother to look in his mirrors 100 m or so up the road and delay pulling out because there is an approaching vehicle within visual range - and the law suggests "visual range" to be 150 m) ... there is no crash.

I don't dispute that Clayton's speed contributed substantially to the severity of this crash, but the more hedo2002 defends this cop's actions, the less faith I have in the SIU, and that was already pretty low, on account of the SIU consisting mostly of ex-cops who are out to protect their own.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Brian, we'll never know 'what if' Clayton was travelling at the limit, because he wasn't. He was double it. Any calculations are meaningless and, from what I'm seeing, largely based on an assumption that the officer acted in an unlawful and negligent manner. This cannot be assumed from the evidence and to do so, in order to then prove that 'fact', is being guilty of circular reasoning.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Brian, we'll never know 'what if' Clayton was travelling at the limit, because he wasn't. He was double it. Any calculations are meaningless and, from what I'm seeing, largely based on an assumption that the officer acted in an unlawful and negligent manner. This cannot be assumed from the evidence and to do so, in order to then prove that 'fact', is being guilty of circular reasoning.

Excuse me? Any calculations are meaningless simply because we know Clay was speeding?
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I'm not presuming anything, just doing the math. If the cop had looked 100 m up the road before turning, and delayed pulling out because of seeing an approaching vehicle, the crash wouldn't have happened.

I'm also disputing hedo2002's contention that the collision wouldn't have happened if Clayton hadn't been speeding, because it COULD have. I'VE BEEN THERE.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I'm not presuming anything, just doing the math. If the cop had looked 100 m up the road before turning, and delayed pulling out because of seeing an approaching vehicle, the crash wouldn't have happened.

I'm also disputing hedo2002's contention that the collision wouldn't have happened if Clayton hadn't been speeding, because it COULD have. I'VE BEEN THERE.

Your time and effort in the calculations are muchly appreciated. These represent the line of thinking many have had, but were unable to clearly communicate as you just did.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Excuse me? Any calculations are meaningless simply because we know Clay was speeding?

No, calculations that have their basis in the assumption that the officer did something wrong, or in fact any assumption, are flawed at their base. I'm seeing a lot of 'logic' that starts from an assumption. Go in thinking that you'll prove something and you're sure to prove it, whether or not it's true.

I'm not presuming anything, just doing the math. If the cop had looked 100 m up the road before turning, and delayed pulling out because of seeing an approaching vehicle, the crash wouldn't have happened.

I'm also disputing hedo2002's contention that the collision wouldn't have happened if Clayton hadn't been speeding, because it COULD have. I'VE BEEN THERE.

As have I, as previously explained, though I'm going to great pains to try and see the incident without allowing my own experience to colour it.

Hedo2002's statements about a second earlier or later are nonsensical. So are yours about it being inevitable, because you're operating on an assumption about a certain range of distance. We have some data on one side of the equation, but we have none but speed on the other. Nothing but guesswork separates your conclusions from hedo202's. You both are making assumptions about information we do not possess.
 
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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

You have no facts to support your "THEORY" other than YOU determined even BEFORE an investigation was commenced that the officer was guilty, and "needed to be disciplined"

My posts are based on the evidence, and the current legislation and what is considered "legal" and illegal for the purposes of a conviction.

I take issue with your attempts to minimize the actions of Clayton, no he wasn't trying to "slow" he was trying to come to a full panic stop to characterize it any other way is ludicrous and willfully blind to the obvious

From hearing the news and reading this thread, I originally thought that this would have been Clayton's responsibility. I reserved comment until I went to the crash site myself. Once visiting the crash site and seeing for myself, I began posting in this thread. The possibilities were so extrememley obvious to me that I felt comfortable in my posistion.

I was wrong in my initial thoughts that responsibility should be on Clayton, I am now right that the responsibility resides on the officer.

I didn't have to wait for SIU release to support my thoughts, but out of respect for you, I kept mum for while until it came out, You formed your opinion before the release as well (I'm going from memory here...but if you need me to go back and quote post or pull from my screen shots I can) "It was called a Head on , and that is what it is"....which was clearly wrong.
 
Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

No, calculations that have their basis in the assumption that the officer did something wrong, or in fact any assumption, are flawed at their base. I'm seeing a lot of 'logic' that starts from an assumption. Go in thinking that you'll prove something and you're sure to prove it, whether or not it's true.

Sensible numbers must make some sense even to you Rob, regardless of the source. If these numbers do not make any sense, I highly encourage you to show otherwise.
 
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