Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

[hedo2002]

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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

The bike hit the cruiser in the side the video wouldn't have caught anything other, than the cruiser in the process of making a u turn then moving violently and coming to a stop. The camera isn't a 360 view.

Wow we have mind reader. Please use your skills and tell us what the hell the rider was thinking.

In the US the video is considered "public property" not so under Canada's privacy laws. That is why you see TV shows of US cop videos.

Hope that is short enough for you.

A video from cops car would be nice...


P.s. stop writing novels, your own thoughts get lost in them.


See. A cop doesnt have to say anything. But... Camera is still rolling and rewriting itself, if car gets hit or anything else happens, the tape goes 30 sec or a minute back and actually deposits it on police server...

And, that video is public property...

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Please feel free where i posted that I was familiar with the vehicles used in that region?

Many pages ago you posted the name of the dead man was Clayton Rivert does anyone know the name of the officer. I stated that I wasn't released as he hasn't been charged. that is SOP for any police service as well as the SIU

Sure. No prob. Post#347 Hedo2002 "If it was radio dispatch, based on my experience patrol units in that area would have been giving their locations to coordinate their movements, So he would have been "monitoring" radio traffic and perhaps even been on his radio." Do feel free to elaborate on your experience with patrol units in that area.

Yup. Again, does anyone know the name of the officer involved in this collision? Do you Hedo?

 

[Fen|X]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

The bike hit the cruiser in the side the video...

Thats perfect for me....
Im going straight... I hit a car in the side.... I have the right of way, cars fault.

Thats why, video would indicate that cop at fault and he should for rest of his life, pray that he doesnt tbone anyone in same way, but be ont the other side, and, other parties, put it under the carpet, so the guy he tboned gets away...

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I guess the 11 witnesses all "had skin in the game" and were lying to the SIU to protect an officer they likely didn't even know, (some would have been other YRP officers who responded after the collision). Some would have been civilians who at some point had seen either the cruiser of the bike being operated.

Maybe, but I am one of the witnesses named in the report. I did not lie to the SIU, and certainly offered no information to protect the officer I didn't know.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Thats perfect for me....
Im going straight... I hit a car in the side.... I have the right of way, cars fault.

Thats why, video would indicate that cop at fault and he should for rest of his life, pray that he doesnt tbone anyone in same way, but be ont the other side, and, other parties, put it under the carpet, so the guy he tboned gets away...

As simple as it appears, I can't help but agree that the officer should at least see his day in court.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

The bike hit the cruiser in the side the video wouldn't have caught anything other, than the cruiser in the process of making a u turn then moving violently and coming to a stop. The camera isn't a 360 view.

Wow we have mind reader. Please use your skills and tell us what the hell the rider was thinking.

In the US the video is considered "public property" not so under Canada's privacy laws. That is why you see TV shows of US cop videos.

Hope that is short enough for you.

Congratulations. You can hide behind Canadian privacy laws. Regardless off Canadian law, some of us here still know the difference between right and wrong. Hope that is short enough for you.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Wow.... Really???? Omg... And u r a moderator?

And what, precisely, does being a moderator have to do with recognizing that our laws governing this sort of situation are not the same as those in the UK?

Would you as a reasonable person, attempt a UTurn in front of a speeding motorcycle, in poor lighting, and with possible obstructions due to construction? Or would you as a reasonable person choose another place to turn around or wait for the motorcycle to pass?

My previously posted information, with respect to a scholarly study, explains why an oncoming motorcycle might not appear to be a 'speeding motorcycle'.

 

[carboncat]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Ok how about this, who doesn't hear a bike at over 100 kph coming down the road?
And I as a reasonable person, would never pull out in front of a bike regardless if i "thought" I could make the "u turn"
was this a legal "u turn" ?
Was the officer trying to block the road with his car to leave the motorcyclist absolutely no room?
I know what my bets are.

And Rob, do you still feel if the rider was the cop, he would be charged and proven to be at fault?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Ok how about this, who doesn't hear a bike at over 100 kph coming down the road?
And I as a reasonable person, would never pull out in front of a bike regardless if i "thought" I could make the "u turn"
was this a legal "u turn" ?
Was the officer trying to block the road with his car to leave the motorcyclist absolutely no room?
I know what my bets are.

And Rob, do you still feel if the rider was the cop, he would be charged and proven to be at fault?

Based on the description of the incident, and the measurements provided by casacrow, this would appear to have been a legal U-turn. I have already commented on this, pages back. I have also commented, just a few posts back, on my feelings if the roles were reversed. Do I think that there would have been a charge if the driver was a civilian and the rider was a cop? Pure speculation. Do I think that there should have been a charge if that was the case? Under Ontario law, no. My opinion does not changed based on the identities of the people involved.

 

[inreb]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

My opinion does not changed based on the identities of the people involved.

Correct thing to say. Like cop, true intent not known.

 

[ddusseld]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

In this case it would have been completely reasonable. Based on the sight line there would have appeared to be tons of time to make a U-turn.

Thanks for your input. I ask though, if and when you would have decided to make this turn, was that the reasonable you? Or the aggressive you?

 

[ddusseld]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I'm sure everybody would hear the bike. Not sure why this matters? Are we supposed to be able to judge how far away the bike is based on sound? Maybe estimate the speed based on sound?

My question to you then is if you won't make a U-turn when you think you can make it, when to you make the U-turn? Are you always waiting for the road to be completely clear of traffic? What about turning left? I can't imagine you have never turned left when there is oncoming traffic. Do you not make a judgment call based on how much time you think you have to make the maneuver? These kind of judgment calls are made all the time while riding/driving. There is an expectation when making these decisions that the other users of the road are riding/driving within certain "norms".

Ok how about this, who doesn't hear a bike at over 100 kph coming down the road?
And I as a reasonable person, would never pull out in front of a bike regardless if i "thought" I could make the "u turn"
was this a legal "u turn" ?
Was the officer trying to block the road with his car to leave the motorcyclist absolutely no room?
I know what my bets are.

And Rob, do you still feel if the rider was the cop, he would be charged and proven to be at fault?

 

[Emefef]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Wow - after all the opinions, calculations and even some civil discussion we've gone right back to the discussion of June 15 - speculation and accusation.

A few posters keep repeating the question "would you have made the U-Turn in that position at the time in those circumstances".
How many of us can picture ourselves at that time in a police cruiser responding to a call?
...but the best one is, "would you have made that u-turn in front of a speeding motorcycle?" Where, in what available form, have we seen that the officer saw the motorcycle and turned in front of it? I don't think we have, so even if we all answer "no, probably not" it's irrelevant. If he didn't see it, should he have expected something to suddenly come into view at over 150kmh? That's the standard of reasonableness. We often hear "drive like everyone else is out to kill you". Nice notion, but we can't actually assume that every single motorist on the road is not going act generally within the law. We simply have to watch to ensure our safety. However, we need to make reasonable assumptions based on certain things: our experience and abilities, our observations at the time, and the law being a few significant ones.
Unless we know for a fact that the officer saw the bike and decided to execute the turn, I think MOST of the argument against the officer is pointless. If we know he saw the bike and misjudged its speed, then we can imagine how difficult it was to determine the speed and speculate as to whether it was appropriate.

As for the point of impact, we didn't get the benefit of the officer's testimony, but we do at least have a statement that the cruiser was travelling at 25kmh. With the rampant speculation in the thread can we not imagine that perhaps the impact wasn't "exactly" head on, nose-to-nose? That the officer either almost completed the turn, or had started accelerating out of the turn and swerved when he actually saw the bike? There was similar speculation back in June...
I'm curious though, and I'm sure there lots of opinions out there. I'm hopeful there may be some experience too (but not personal!): at a direct impact into the side of vehicle at 140 or more, wouldn't the damage have been even greater? Remember way back when the bike (v-max?) hit a car on Scarborough Golf Club Rd? I know it wasn't a big crown vic, but the damage appeared to be significantly greater than what this cruiser sustained, which why I wonder about the angle.

I don't think any opinion are going to change at this point. It seems none of the examples, relevant or not, have done anything to persuade one to change their mind or to put any more trust in the system.

 

[inreb]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Hard to believe cop isn't guilty of something if known profiling data are of any use.

Wow - after all the opinions, calculations and even some civil discussion we've gone right back to the discussion of June 15 - speculation and accusation.

Unless we know for a fact that the officer saw the bike and decided to execute the turn, I think MOST of the argument against the officer is pointless. We didn't get the benefit of the officer's testimony

Because reiterating over and over again ad nauseam to no apparent effect is de rigueur. I think this discussion has been civil by typical internet standards. Altho, like the cop, you never really know intent.

 

[BigEvilDoer]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Why on earth is this thread still going on?
There are 2 camps of people here, and absolutely nobody is going to change sides and have drawn their own conclusions with the information that is currently available.

Camp A: Completely officer's fault 'cause he obviously wanted to kill the rider by blocking the road
Camp B: Fault is split, as the officer shouldn't have made the U-Turn without making certain the roadway was clear behind him, and the the rider is partially at fault due to excessive speed that nobody in their right mind would expect.

So why not agree to disagree and call it a day?

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

No need to have "experience with patrol units in that area" what I have described can be verified by ANY officer working in North America, as again this SOP. Are you suggesting that if a vehicle flees from say a pursuit that unit doesn't radio the other units in the area to coordinate their movements? Of r a suspect is on the loose in a certain area they don't coordinate? I am fortunate enough to have personal experience of this being done several times a shift. So it isn't "unique" to YRP. I guess, that all other services do it but YRP doesn't.

i have already said I don't know the officer's name as it has not and will not be released. He has been charged with nothing. Just as it is if you were involved win a collision and were charged with nothing the police wouldn't identify you. Again You asked for my "experience" and I have provided it, these are SOP's

Sure. No prob. Post#347 Hedo2002 "If it was radio dispatch, based on my experience patrol units in that area would have been giving their locations to coordinate their movements, So he would have been "monitoring" radio traffic and perhaps even been on his radio." Do feel free to elaborate on your experience with patrol units in that area.

Yup. Again, does anyone know the name of the officer involved in this collision? Do you Hedo?

 

[inreb]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Why on earth is this thread still going on?

So why not agree to disagree and call it a day?

My opinion? Because these types of threads are a proxy war for certain people. But I wasn't there so you'll never pin me down. Sorry about your luck. Will edit to include appropriate smiley when I figure out what it is.

edit:wave:

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Again you can argue with me all day but you can't change the laws of physics. If an object, (the cruiser in this case), is in the process of making a U Turn, (not sure if you have ever made a U turn but at some point in the arc the cruiser would have placed the cruiser from approx 45 degrees to 135 degrees of the arc to "appear" somewhat sideways to the road). To demonstrate this to your self draw two straight lines on a piece of paper, then draw an arc similair to a vehicle doing a U TURN ohj look at a good portion of that arc the vehicle is not lined up with the straight lines but is in some portions of the arc almost "across the road" If you can't grasp this relatively simple concept then then it calls into doubt your conclusions, and certainly the results of your "on scene" investigation

The photographs of the cruiser contradict this. The damage from the collision is in the centre of the side of the cruiser. If it was travelling, it would have to have been travelling sideways.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Then you should have declared at the beginning that you are a witness, (which we can "assume" to not be the case otherwise why would you have had to attend the scene on a few occasion to conduct your investigation> Plus one would assume you would have given us a complete account of exactly what happened, and how it happened rather than a few incorrect speculations.

Not to mention you "think" it is the officers duty despite the Supreme Court of Canada ruling otherwise it is the officers RIGHT not to speak to investigators. Then why wouldn't you believe if you actually witnessed the collision and can't show that the investigation is flawed and the investigators lied at worst or at best filed a misleading and incorrect report. I would think given you want the officer "disciplined" for doing nothing illegal then you would at the minimum be seeking to have the report corrected and the investigators dismissed. Would you not have a duty to expose this to the media, and not via a single motorcycle forum?

So tell us where you one of the witnesses, or is this yet again another slight of hand, hoping to convince others you KNOW the truth

Maybe, but I am one of the witnesses named in the report. I did not lie to the SIU, and certainly offered no information to protect the officer I didn't know.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Ok so it has been determined by EXPERTS that he has not done anything to be charged as there is "no possibility for a conviction" So I guess you would be ok if the a cop pulled you over and said I doubt you will be convicted but I "think you need to see your day in court" I bet you wouldn't be happy with that.

The experts who have the knowledge and experience, to make this determination, But because you, (with out the benefit of their expertise, experience nor access to all the evidence) think differently they should do it?

As simple as it appears, I can't help but agree that the officer should at least see his day in court.

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