Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

[casacrow]

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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I would have never attempted this "U-Turn" given the described layout and conditions. I would've done it in a more open-spaced area, or would have waited until the vehicle behind me passed.

I think I can relate this to when I had my GTR (RHD in a LHD world). Anytime I would approach a left turn intersection, and the opposing left turn lane is blocking my view(especially if it's a big truck), I do not 'take the chance' and hope that a vehicle would not be approaching. I think it's a given that we exercised common sense in that we waited until the light turns yellow, or when the vehicle makes its left and we can clearly see. Essentially, whenever it was clearly safe to turn. Had I ever been in an accident where I made the left turn because my view was blocked, and a car speeding twice the speed limit t-bones me, who is getting charged?

Screw your GTR talk,we don't care about you silly 4wheeler(maybe a lil jealosy here....). In the situation you describe I would be commin' for your head if you made that turn.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I don't believe the officer had criminal intent. I think it was a "driving error" and is either b) or c) above. Either there wasn't sufficient visibility which means the U-turn was illegal, or the officer ought to have seen the rider (speeding or not) and did not take reasonable care. Make no mistake, I think Clayton's excessive speed for conditions was the prime factor involved, but the officer's share of responsibility for the collision is not zero.

There was a question about what a "reasonable person" might do in place of what the cop did. I will let others judge whether I am a "reasonable person" ... but typically, I avoid making U-turns on public roads. Typically I will turn into a private driveway and turn around in there. Or I will turn around right after an intersection such that the opposing direction has a stop sign (which means anyone approaching in either direction, if there is any that I have missed seeing, will be stopping). If there is traffic in visual range, I don't do it. If there is a hill or other blind spot, I don't do it. I have occasionally done a U-turn right at traffic lights where a left turn is permitted (in other words, I make the left turn, just turn "more left") and only if I have visually identified EVERY oncoming vehicle within visual range (but that is the same as for making the left turn itself). If there are blind spots or there is ANY doubt about traffic conditions, I don't do it (or I make the normal left turn and deal with having to turn back later). From the description of what others have said the area involved in this incident looked like at the time (disclaimer; I wasn't there), it doesn't sound like an area where I would consider making a U-turn. That is a safe assumption, because there are very few places where I would consider making a U-turn.

Thanks for your input. I am taking from this that you as a reasonable person wouldn't have made a UTurn at all, not just at that place in those conditions.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

+1
I would say as comparisons go, that is pretty much the short of it.

Reagrdless of speed, With everyone saying how the car covered the whole road and left the rider no where to go, which would indicate he would have had to make a 3 point turn instead of a U-turn, So if the rider was going half the speed he was (The speed limit) the officer still would not have the visibility to make this maneuvor safely......

Would you as a reasonable person, attempt a UTurn in front of a speeding motorcycle, in poor lighting, and with possible obstructions due to construction? Or would you as a reasonable person choose another place to turn around or wait for the motorcycle to pass?

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I believe I'm a pretty reasonable person. I will also say I'm a relatively aggressive rider/driver. The reason I mention this is that I don't tend to wait until there is enough room for "granny" to make a move before I make mine. Knowing Rob, I'd probably tend to make the U-turn in situations he might not. In this specific case I would have checked my mirrors and seen a headlight far down the road. I'd have assumed I have a lot of time to make my U-turn. I would have pulled behind the barriers to give myself more room and then made the U-turn. To be completely honest if I felt the head light was far enough down the road I'd have made a 3 point turn if there was not enough room to go around the barrier.

Thanks for your input. I ask though, if and when you would have decided to make this turn, was that the reasonable you? Or the aggressive you?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Please explain to me why in this video, the driver of the car been charged, and you will have answer to your question.
http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforum/showthread.php?185837-GoPro-video-of-fatal-motorcycle-accident

And this is the comment from police:

P.S. biker has been speeding, excessively, 100Mph

And this is why, officer should have been charged. But, they cover their own, that is why, a lot of wage excuses are in the investigation.

Different countries, different laws.

 

[lator-illa]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Different countries, different laws.

Say this accident happened here in Canada, with the same video evidence, does the driver get away with no charges? What is the law here anyway? I'm geniunely curious.

 

[inreb]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Different countries, different laws.

Maybe so but it's still indicative the reasonable angle cuts a wide swath.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Say this accident happened here in Canada, with the same video evidence, does the driver get away with no charges? What is the law here anyway? I'm geniunely curious.

A vehicle moving at double the limit, lane splitting, and moving in a manner that could easily result in a careless or dangerous driving charge? The driver of the car isn't likely to have been charged precisely because of the video evidence.

 

[carboncat]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

So the officer pulled his car ( which when a thief is driving,p it , to the police it's considered a "dangerous weapon")
In front of a person on a motorcycle, it's ok, however, say the cop was driving the motorcycle, And a civilian was driving , you can honestly tell me the driver would not be criminally responsible ? Police "chaise" or not his actions no matter how you look at it caused the mans death. It's cut and dry.

 

[carboncat]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

And other note, what if the rider lived and the cop died? Would then cops choice still be the right one? Or the riders fault still

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Which one was the cop and which of the two died doesn't change the situation. If it had been the cop on the bike I'd be saying the same thing.

 

[carboncat]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I guaranty it would

 

[Fen|X]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Different countries, different laws.

Wow.... Really???? Omg... And u r a moderator?

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Please feel free where i posted that I was familiar with the vehicles used in that region? I have said in various posts that I am familiar with police vehicles and all the distractions that an officer is exposed to. I also stated that I am familiar with that section of the road as I used to travel it, from time to time, when I lived in Keswick. No I am not now nor have I EVER been on the payroll of YRP in ANY capacity nor the SIU.

Many pages ago you posted the name of the dead man was Clayton Rivert does anyone know the name of the officer. I stated that I wasn't released as he hasn't been charged. that is SOP for any police service as well as the SIU

Hedo, you had mentioned that you had experience with the vehicles used in that region. Have you been previously on YRP payroll?

You also mentioned that you did not know the officer. How could you know that if the name wasn't released?

Just a couple things I was thinking about.

Ill scroll back and address the questions you asked when I find some time. Please feel free to ask any more questions you feel you need answered by me.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

So what would be the evidence that would satisfy you?? Do you expect the SIU to give you access to the black box information. A vehicle black box, much like an aircraft's black box contains many many pieces of data not just the speed of the vehicle and travel of direction. You already have the "evidence" you merely chose to ignore it, so let me recap it for you.

The cruiser was traveling at 25 km/h "when it was hit" so tell me how does a vehicle "block" a roadway, (which suggests it had come to stop and was "sitting' blocking the road). That is one magical cruiser to be in the process of completing a u turn at 25 km and stopped at the same time. Now you will say how do "we" know it was moving, because that is what the family reported to DVS Bullet who then posted it here.

Now how do we know the crusier was making a U turn again the Black Box would have shown this, (remembering the data from the black box is NOT handled by the investigators but rather technical experts). the black box would have recorded EVERYTHING about the cruiser pre, during and POST collision). This would also explain somewhat why the cruiser came to it's final resting place if the front wheels were turned and the cruiser was hit mid point it would have spun, some but also likely also "rolled" forward, before it stopped. Again EVERYTHING would have been recorded, as the black box is designed to continue to record post collision.

Of course you will "continue to believe his intent was to block the road" despite the laws of physics and the EVIDENCE the SIu gathered and you have not seen because again that wouldn't fit with your "discipline the officer" conclusions.

This situation doesn't involve a car running a red or an intersection. I don't see how the two could relate.

If you wish to believe the intent of the officer was to turn around, because the SIU supposes so, that's fine. Until evidence appears that suggests his intent, I will continue to believe his intent was to block the road, seeing that is what he very successfully did.

 

[Fen|X]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

So what would be the evidence that would satisfy you??

A video from cops car would be nice...


P.s. stop writing novels, your own thoughts get lost in them.


See. A cop doesnt have to say anything. But... Camera is still rolling and rewriting itself, if car gets hit or anything else happens, the tape goes 30 sec or a minute back and actually deposits it on police server...

And, that video is public property...

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Hey I have visited the site of a murder a few times since the murder took place, (I have seen NONE of the evidence), but like you I guess I should be able to conduct an investigation and reveal the "real killer" Yes that is ludicrous just as your suppositions are.

Should one automatically accept what the media, police or SIU tell us? Not in all the cases but there is a good reason to in this case. The results are supported by the evidence and if one actually looks at it from a legal point of view taking into account all the "legalities" then the proper decisions have made. the SIU have stated

even assuming for the moment that the officer was something less than careful as he proceeded into his U-turn, I am satisfied that this singular indiscretion is far less than the marked departure from the level of care that a reasonable person would have exercised in the circumstances – the standard prescribed by the criminal law for there to be reasonable grounds to lay a criminal charge.”

This shows they didn't simply didn't show up at the scene have a few donuts and coffee, "with the boys" and said cop perfect, rider hooligan ok people pack it up let's go home.

you see only a small number of possibilities and all but one put the cruiser at fault that is because you reached that conclusion before there even was an investigation.

In law there exists only ONE scenario. the rider's stunt riding precludes any charges against the officer.

I guess the 11 witnesses all "had skin in the game" and were lying to the SIU to protect an officer they likely didn't even know, (some would have been other YRP officers who responded after the collision). Some would have been civilians who at some point had seen either the cruiser of the bike being operated.

Sorry, with all the sarcasm in this thread I understand how my post could be misinterpreted. I wasn't very clear.

I, like yourself, have attended the site many times, including shortly after the collision.

I appreciate you making up your own mind, and taking considerable time/effort to do so. I don't believe that simply agreeing with the media/SIU is ever a wise choice, particularly in this case.

Please continue in your search to find out what happened. I only see a small number of possibilities here, and all but one would put the cause of the collision on the car.

 

[85K100]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

The cruiser was traveling at 25 km/h "when it was hit" so tell me how does a vehicle "block" a roadway, (which suggests it had come to stop and was "sitting' blocking the road). That is one magical cruiser to be in the process of completing a u turn at 25 km and stopped at the same time.

The photographs of the cruiser contradict this. The damage from the collision is in the centre of the side of the cruiser. If it was travelling, it would have to have been travelling sideways.

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

The SIU report was written after having looked at ALL the evidence it isn't based "upon a former police officer's opinion" everyone, (including the technical experts), provide input into the final report.

There is no "threshold" in the terms of a estimate of a conviction. normally the investigators meet with the crown assigned to them, and they present all their evidence, including technical data, drawings, videos etc. In a case as involved as this, they would have first likely submitted it to the crown then set up a meeting for a few days/weeks later. This would give the crown an option to study the evidence, it would be highly likely that more than one crown, and perhaps a few clerks all would have reviewed it and discussed it then advised the investigators if there was enough evidence to support a charge, (based upon their experience). It certainly isn't based on "that the events likely occurred", but the actual evidence and what it shows occurred. It is also based upon if they feel they can convince a court "beyond a reasonable doubt" Given that in this case the u turn in and of itself was not illegal they would have had to lay a charge like criminal negligence causing death, or perhaps dangerous driving causing death. Which I agree likley wouldn't have led to a conviction.

If there was a charge filed relating to blocking the road, the officer would have the option to defend their actions in court. A court decision would satisfy me. A washy SIU release, and a former police officer's opinion likely will not.

What is the threshold that officers and the crown use to determine whether or not to file a charge? All involved estimate 100% chance of conviction? 50% chance of conviction? Precedence? That the events likely occurred? Can you help explain this in your experience Hedo?

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

The SIU would have accessed the Communications tapes, (both the caller reporting the suspicious vehicle, as well as the dispatchers sending out the call). this would have included where the vehicle was last seen, (if it was being driven, it could have been a vehicle parked in front of a residence). this would have told them where the vehicle was likely to be in relation to the cruiser involved. if the cruiser was heading eastbound and the report stated the vehicle was somewhere west of the location of the cruiser then black box shows the cruiser attempting to complete a u turn then a "logical conclusion" is the cruiser was turnign around to head to the area of the report. This would have been something
the investigators had likely done hundreds of times during their policing careers, as it was for me therefore, more than a "possibility".

For the record I have never claimed my statements to be "fact by default". They ARE based upon experience, but I am not that presumptuous to think they are "fact by default"

The SIU told us that the officer was investigating a suspicious vehicle in the area. I can accept that as fact. Perhaps the officer thought Clay was the suspicious vehicle he was looking for, and wanted to stop Clay to have a chat as part of his investigation?

The officer receiving a call and having to make a turn was a scenario that Hedo suggested as a possibility. I accept that as a possibility, but not fact. As a former police officer Hedo should be offered some credibility on his insight to procedure. Because he was a police officer certainly does not make his statements fact by default.

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