Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

[Rob MacLennan]

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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Really? The SIU reports their findings of their thorough investigation with "It seems"? As a former police officer this appears normal and reasonable to you?

And yup. That's me again on how the SIU can report as to the officer's intent. They blocked the road, and I will believe that is their intent until the officer's notes say otherwise. A turning manouver was never completed, and black boxes certainly do not have the ability to read minds as to someone's intent, only the real physical actions that occurred, and not the future.

The turning maneouvre was never completed because a motorcycle, travelling at more than twice the limit, impacted the car. If a motorcycle is hit by a car that runs a red, as the bike is going through an intersection, odds are that the action of going through the intersection wouldn't be completed either.

Quoting myself here Rob, just in case you missed it being buried in the thread. I have seen you have posted a few times since, have you not seen this/reserving response for later/choosing not to answer?

I felt that my original post adequately answered your question and further response would be redundant. You appeared to be fishing for the answer you wanted to read. If I never acted, because I'm aware that it can be difficult or even impossible to judge the speeds of certain approaching vehicles, then I might as well never ride or drive again. I would never move.

 

[85K100]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Jeebus, who are you and are you for hire? You could save me so much typing.'Tis quite incredible how anyone that actually attended the site can draw such similar conclusions. The rest seem to prefer sitting at home behind their keyboards playing Internet CSI.....

I'm sorry but does that mean you agree with me, or disagree?
I also stopped there a couple of days after the collision. I parked, and walked around the scene. I saw the skid marks, and the fluid stains on the road. I'm just trying to figure out what happened. My opinions are my own and you are entitled to yours. I met Clayton once and we got along well. I think he was a nice guy.
We had a common interest: We both ride bikes that are made to go very fast. I remember telling him as we parted, to be careful.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Hedo, you had mentioned that you had experience with the vehicles used in that region. Have you been previously on YRP payroll?

You also mentioned that you did not know the officer. How could you know that if the name wasn't released?

Just a couple things I was thinking about.

Ill scroll back and address the questions you asked when I find some time. Please feel free to ask any more questions you feel you need answered by me.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I'm sorry but does that mean you agree with me, or disagree?
I also stopped there a couple of days after the collision. I parked, and walked around the scene. I saw the skid marks, and the fluid stains on the road. I'm just trying to figure out what happened. My opinions are my own and you are entitled to yours. I met Clayton once and we got along well. I think he was a nice guy.
We had a common interest: We both ride bikes that are made to go very fast. I remember telling him as we parted, to be careful.

Sorry, with all the sarcasm in this thread I understand how my post could be misinterpreted. I wasn't very clear.

I, like yourself, have attended the site many times, including shortly after the collision.

I appreciate you making up your own mind, and taking considerable time/effort to do so. I don't believe that simply agreeing with the media/SIU is ever a wise choice, particularly in this case.

Please continue in your search to find out what happened. I only see a small number of possibilities here, and all but one would put the cause of the collision on the car.

 

[85K100]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Please continue in your search to find out what happened. I only see a small number of possibilities here, and all but one would put the cause of the collision on the car.

Its clear to me that the car was blocking the entire roadway. There was simply no way for Clayton to get around it. The damage to the car (I saw the pictures and the skid marks) indicates that he was going very fast.
Whether that was the cop's intention or not is the key question, and one that we likely will never have the answer to. The SIU has determined that it was not.
However, when it comes to assigning legal responsibility, its my opinion that Clayton's excessive speed trumps all else when it comes to culpability.
That might change if the officer came forward and said he blocked the road with the intention of stopping the motorcycle. Not likely to happen.

 

[inreb]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

However, when it comes to assigning legal responsibility, its my opinion that Clayton's excessive speed trumps all else when it comes to culpability.

Here's my glitch with that. It sounds like above a certain speed, which apparently nobody is capable of judging anyway, the other road user has carte blanche to do as they please. Stepping off a curb into speeding traffic may not be a good option but car v bike, hey why not? So I imagine a poorly trained excitable patrolman making poor choices as he froths at the mouth when seeing a speeding bike. I'd like to see that reigned in. If it's even a problem. Sammy Yatim.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

The turning maneouvre was never completed because a motorcycle, travelling at more than twice the limit, impacted the car. If a motorcycle is hit by a car that runs a red, as the bike is going through an intersection, odds are that the action of going through the intersection wouldn't be

This situation doesn't involve a car running a red or an intersection. I don't see how the two could relate.

If you wish to believe the intent of the officer was to turn around, because the SIU supposes so, that's fine. Until evidence appears that suggests his intent, I will continue to believe his intent was to block the road, seeing that is what he very successfully did.

 

[85K100]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

If you wish to believe the intent of the officer was to turn around, because the SIU supposes so, that's fine. Until evidence appears that suggests his intent, I will continue to believe his intent was to block the road, seeing that is what he very successfully did.

You could very well be right. That's how it looks. You will never get the officer to admit it though.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Originally Posted by casacrow
But you surely wouldn't pull out in front, based on your own experience of being unable to judge speed in similar situation?

I felt that my original post adequately answered your question and further response would be redundant. You appeared to be fishing for the answer you wanted to read. If I never acted, because I'm aware that it can be difficult or even impossible to judge the speeds of certain approaching vehicles, then I might as well never ride or drive again. I would never move.

I ask because you have provided some thoughtful insight to this situation. I ask because I believe you to be an intelligent and reasonable person. Would you pull out in front of a motorcycle in the same situation as the SIU details ( poor lighting, speeding motircycle, construction in the area), or would you as a reasonable person find another place to turn around/wait for vehicle to pass?

Your answer will greatly influence my thoughts of what a reasonable person would do. Please help me to understand.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

You could very well be right. That's how it looks. You will never get the officer to admit it though.

If there was a charge filed relating to blocking the road, the officer would have the option to defend their actions in court. A court decision would satisfy me. A washy SIU release, and a former police officer's opinion likely will not.

What is the threshold that officers and the crown use to determine whether or not to file a charge? All involved estimate 100% chance of conviction? 50% chance of conviction? Precedence? That the events likely occurred? Can you help explain this in your experience Hedo?

 

[Paul1000RR]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

You missed this one as well:

"A civilian witness’ evidence gives us some sense of this possibility when she recounts that the motorcycle could not be seen in her rear view mirror when she checked it 30 seconds before it passed her at high speed without any warning. "

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that the SIU included this in the official report to try and justify that speed was the lone underlying factor in Clayton's death?

No you're not the only one.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

This situation doesn't involve a car running a red or an intersection. I don't see how the two could relate.

If you wish to believe the intent of the officer was to turn around, because the SIU supposes so, that's fine. Until evidence appears that suggests his intent, I will continue to believe his intent was to block the road, seeing that is what he very successfully did.

I don't simply wish to believe so. I am taking it as fact, given that the officer was responding to a call at the time. Assuming that he would change directions in order to travel away from the call he was to attend would be illogical.

I ask because you have provided some thoughtful insight to this situation. I ask because I believe you to be an intelligent and reasonable person. Would you pull out in front of a motorcycle in the same situation as the SIU details ( poor lighting, speeding motircycle, construction in the area), or would you as a reasonable person find another place to turn around/wait for vehicle to pass?

Your answer will greatly influence my thoughts of what a reasonable person would do. Please help me to understand.

Well I thought that logic would suffice, but I will spell it out then. If I checked and saw that the only vehicle I might encounter was a sufficient distance away that any reasonably assumed speed would leave me in a safe situation to do so, I would make that turn.

My process, on the extremely rare occasion that I perform a U-turn, is to check the rear view mirror, then turn my head so that I can see the side view mirror, than follow up with a shoulder check. This is done in a single fluid motion that allows me to see both oncoming vehicles and vehicles approaching from behind. If my checks lead me to believe that I have sufficient safe distance from any approaching vehicles to perform the maneouvre then I will do so with particular care given to vehicles approaching from the front, whose right of way I could violate by entering their lane. The move would be signalled, before I proceeded.

Given that (as I have already said and provided substantiation for) it is very difficult to judge the approaching speed of a single track vehicle I would be just as likely to have been in this collision as the officer, who actually was involved. All of the steps I have outlined are in keeping with the actions of a reasonable road user.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I don't simply wish to believe so. I am taking it as fact, given that the officer was responding to a call at the time. Assuming that he would change directions in order to travel away from the call he was to attend would be illogical.

The SIU told us that the officer was investigating a suspicious vehicle in the area. I can accept that as fact. Perhaps the officer thought Clay was the suspicious vehicle he was looking for, and wanted to stop Clay to have a chat as part of his investigation?

The officer receiving a call and having to make a turn was a scenario that Hedo suggested as a possibility. I accept that as a possibility, but not fact. As a former police officer Hedo should be offered some credibility on his insight to procedure. Because he was a police officer certainly does not make his statements fact by default.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Given that (as I have already said and provided substantiation for) it is very difficult to judge the approaching speed of a single track vehicle I would be just as likely to have been in this collision as the officer, who actually was involved. All of the steps I have outlined are in keeping with the actions of a reasonable road user.

Thank you for your extremely well described answer. Very much appreciate it.

Are there any other people here that believe they are reasonable?
If so, would it be reasonable of you to pull on front of a speeding motorcycle, in low lighting, with visible obstructions due to construction? Or would you as a reasonable person have chosen a safer place to make your manouver/wait for vehicle to pass first.

Please help me understand what other reasonable people would do.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

The SIU told us that the officer was investigating a suspicious vehicle in the area. I can accept that as fact. Perhaps the officer thought Clay was the suspicious vehicle he was looking for, and wanted to stop Clay to have a chat as part of his investigation?

The officer receiving a call and having to make a turn was a scenario that Hedo suggested as a possibility. I accept that as a possibility, but not fact. As a former police officer Hedo should be offered some credibility on his insight to procedure. Because he was a police officer certainly does not make his statements fact by default.

Leaving aside that one point does not invalidate my conclusion. The officer would not have turned around in order to pursue a fast moving vehicle that was travelling in the same direction as he already was.

 

[Emefef]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

The SIU mandate is to investigate, and if necessary, lay criminal charges. There was not sufficient evidence for criminal charges. The Director's statement in a press release is simply a comment on the result of the investigation, it is not the report.
If there are people that truly believe the investigation was weak because the investigators are "in bed" with every police service or officer in the province, why do you suppose there's so much animosity between the SIU and the coppers? The investigative staff is made up of both civilians and retired or former police officers. To those of you that have worked out your own analysis of the scene after all of the evidence was removed: are you looking for holes in the investigation? Are you looking for a way to demonstrate the officer acted to deliberately injure the rider? Or are you honestly seeking the truth and just don't believe the SIU is impartial or competent?
That's the struggle the SIU faces in every investigation - the coppers think they exist to question every move and screw them, and the public think that every time someone is seriously injured or killed a cop should be going to jail for it.
Hedo is right. This discussion won't change anything, but I think it is going to go on for some time not because of differing opinions, but because of distrust and cynicism. Opinions about what happened don't matter now, the investigation is done. We can only have so many checks and balances in society and in any case, there will some party that believes justice wasn't done - wrong outcome, insufficient punishment - but then there will be those will never accept that any of the checks and balances are anything more than a sham unless the outcome meets their own expectations.
Another case of a police officer doing his job, placed in a dangerous or life threatening position because someone else was breaking the law, and even after he's cleared of criminal behaviour, people want his head. I'm thankful anyone wants that job, and I'm thankful the SIU is there to follow up when an outside look at the situation is necessary.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Thank you for your extremely well described answer. Very much appreciate it.

Are there any other people here that believe they are reasonable?
If so, would it be reasonable of you to pull on front of a speeding motorcycle, in low lighting, with visible obstructions due to construction? Or would you as a reasonable person have chosen a safer place to make your manouver/wait for vehicle to pass first.

Please help me understand what other reasonable people would do.

You miss the point. Perceiving the area would have led a person of reasonable sensibilities to believe that this was a safe place to perform the maneouvre. That's where the other vehicle's speed and the fact that it's a single track vehicle come into play. Certainly it is easy to say that it wasn't so, in retrospect, but that doesn't have an effect on the conditions under which this incident occurred. Hindsight is 20/20. Foresight is something less so.

 

[Emefef]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Leaving aside that one point does not invalidate my conclusion. The officer would not have turned around in order to pursue a fast moving vehicle that was travelling in the same direction as he already was.

You'd think that would help Rob but the theory that he was doing it to block the road seems to be resurfacing. As if the call was about the bike, travelling towards him, and figured he would block the road and stop him. Because it's a good idea to block the road where you can't be seen and have a missile directed at your door. Certainly get you some time off, wouldn't it?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

You'd thank that would help Rob but the theory that he was doing it to block the road seems to be resurfacing. As if the call was about the bike, travelling towards him, and figured he would block the road and stop him. Because it's a good idea to block the road where you can't be seen and have a missile directed at your door. Certainly get you some time off, wouldn't it?

The cherries would have been on from the moment he was going to make that move, if that was the case, and any time off could have potentially been permanent. If the bike had hit the door, rather than the centre post, it would likely have been two dead instead of one.

 

[lator-illa]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Thank you for your extremely well described answer. Very much appreciate it.

Are there any other people here that believe they are reasonable?
If so, would it be reasonable of you to pull on front of a speeding motorcycle, in low lighting, with visible obstructions due to construction? Or would you as a reasonable person have chosen a safer place to make your manouver/wait for vehicle to pass first.

Please help me understand what other reasonable people would do.

I would have never attempted this "U-Turn" given the described layout and conditions. I would've done it in a more open-spaced area, or would have waited until the vehicle behind me passed.

I think I can relate this to when I had my GTR (RHD in a LHD world). Anytime I would approach a left turn intersection, and the opposing left turn lane is blocking my view(especially if it's a big truck), I do not 'take the chance' and hope that a vehicle would not be approaching. I think it's a given that we exercised common sense in that we waited until the light turns yellow, or when the vehicle makes its left and we can clearly see. Essentially, whenever it was clearly safe to turn. Had I ever been in an accident where I made the left turn because my view was blocked, and a car speeding twice the speed limit t-bones me, who is getting charged?

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