Church Burnings - Are these Hate Crimes?

[bitzz]

1)The indigenous population of North America only went up, till the white man arrived. You can check this, it is a verifiable fact.
If there was all this "wars, slavery, and ritualistic killing" there would be corresponding swings in population and territory, you know... like in the European nations at the time.
There wasn't.
Populations and territories were, for the large part, pretty stable. Sure, there were tribal wars, and HUNDREDS were killed, but they would be few and far between. Killing 100 men from a a tribe or village would be a death knoll for that tribe. Yet, tribes survived, for hundreds of years.
Any history I have read or have been told, is that the indigenous did have slaves and the title of "slave" was usually temporary. The "slave" could, at some point, join the tribe of his captors, eventually getting full rights, or they were eventually released. At least one tribe, when they had an corrigible, would give him/her to a neighbour tribe to be a "slave" as a sentence.
The indigenous populations at no time made a commercial business of buying and selling of human beings. Indigenous had slaves, but not in the sense the white man had slaves. Lots and lots of societies have had slaves since forever, it took the white man to make slavery into what you think of when you hear the word "SLAVERY". The word "slave" is kinda loaded in 2021 and it has nothing to do with what the natives were doing.
Ritualistic killing goes with living in a society. The Gods GOTTA be appeased.
Sorta like the SPANISH INQUISITION... NOBODY expects the SPANISH INQUISITION.

B) The "savages" were going into wars with bows and arrows and pointy sticks. While not impossible, it would take SOME dedication to commit cultural genocide with a pointy stick.
The white man spent a large part of his wealth on the implements of war because that was what was important to his way of life.
The indians had bows and arrows and pointy sticks TILL the white man arrived. It seems they didn't spend nearly as much time and effort and beer drinking monies on the implements of destruction, in a civilization 10 times as old as the white mans.
Is that what made them "savages"?

 

[Roadghost]

Ritualistic "wars" among bands that amounted to extended family units barely count as warfare. Especially when they peacefully would taunt each other over the night before, start their battle at dawn for religious purposes and had defined a end of battle which limited casualties on both sides but allowed a victor to be declared.

Piracy was common, but again you are talking relatively small scale situations.

To see "war" you need to go further south to central America where the Aztecs who had functioning states that could engage in warfare.

It's like the internal wars of ancient Greece. Up until Sparta's siege of Athens, battles numbered in small numbers, at dawn, and never involved the commitment of an entire city state's manpower.

Sorry, you're wrong. The Hurons (Montagnais) were at war with the Mohawks. They had those wooden picket fence forts to defend themselves from Iroquois raids. The asked Cartier to help defend them in payment for saving him and his men from scurvy.

This is all irrelevant anyway. Nobody is denying we seized the land through whatever means necessary - war, deception, etc. I don't think anybody should be apologising for it either. The Europeans fought for millenia over Europe, the Mediterranean, and the Orient was fought over for a thousand years too. It's never pretty, but someone eventually forms an empire and wins. That's where we are right now. The Europeans have controlled the world for over 1000 years. Now we're asking everyone to join with us. We can all mope and cry about history, but we have to move forward.

 

[nobbie48]

John A MacDonald said it best in 1879 as to the purpose of the schools.



It was pure and simple cultural genocide.

Doesn't matter how the kids died. Arguing the reasons of why they died is just a poor attempt at whitewashing history, and ignoring the situation around the deaths.

You strip them from their homes to take the savage out of them, you could at least send them home when they died, or give them proper burials. But the reality is, these savage kids were deemed not worth the same consideration as a white kid would have gotten.

So having their classmates dig the graves with a simple cross was more then the savage kids deserved as far as the school administrators felt. That is the problem, not the why they died but the how it was handled.



We'd never let Hitlerjugend reform, or many other genocidal organizations. This is no different.

Giving the institutions the ability to reform is simply an attempt to whitewash history and not let them suffer the consequences.

Trusting your quote of JAM the biggest problem came from the assumption that the aboriginals were savages and needed to be made white minded although between the lines it's implied that they'd never be considered equal. It's pretty much since been proved that all races are intelligent when given the same education and encouragement. Obviously tilting the table by using terms and languages that a person doesn't understand makes the person seem stupid.

Who is the stupid one? The one that works countless hours to acquire more goods than he needs while ignoring his spouse and failing to teach his children how to enjoy life or the one that works enough to feed and care for his family while also spending bonding and teaching time with them.

IMO destroy-the-earth capitalism is more savage than living in rustic surroundings.

Are you suggesting that we should kill off the Catholics and other religions even if they acknowledge and recognize that what they did was wrong and they try to make amends? Fight genocide with genocide.

 

[bitzz]

...I made that sound like commercialization of "slavery" is a white man's invention.
It's not.
the English bought "slaves" off agents on the west coast of Africa.
These guys were buying and selling slave before they ever met a white guy.
The agents were african and were responsible to amass the bodies to sell to the Brits.
Nobody cared about how he amassed these bodies.
The Brits needed bodies because of the effects of the population loss to the plague in Europe and the serfs refusing to go back into the fields in the caribean to harvest the sugar.
... and that's how black africans populated the caribean... and indians and chinese

You can buy a slave in africa TODAY.

 

[nobbie48]

The church has been playing 3 Diocese Monte with pedophile priests for years with nothing but stonewalling as far as any reforms to that, no indication of it ever changing, and people are shocked about a few revenge burnings. I'm shocked there's not more.

Centuries would probably be more accurate. Sexual assault is so hard to accept that denial by almost everyone is a normal response. Add in the Catholic tenets that include obedience to the priest and the infallibility of the Pope and stonewalling is the outcome.

 

[bitzz]

Sorry, you're wrong. The Hurons (Montagnais) were at war with the Mohawks.....

Cool, one example of a warring tribe out of thousands of tribes.
... BUT YEAH, untold death and destruction.

They had to ban "potlach" out west after the white man came along.
Chiefs would bankrupt their tribe in potlach trying to outdo the other tribe.

 

[Dimitri]

Then again, your claims don't quite align with the reality of what was going on with the more local tribes, either.

Did you read your own article?

In areas where large war parties could come together, formal battles occurred that were often highly ritualised and conducted in ways that limited the casualties.

According to his detailed account of the encounter, the military practices were highly ritualistic and governed by strict rules. For example, when the two groups met on the shores of Lake Champlain, they negotiated the time at which the battle would take place. They decided to ‘wait until day to recognize each other and as soon as the sun rose’ they would wage battle. ‘The entire night was spent in dancing and singing,’ reports Champlain, with the two camps shouting ‘an infinite number of insults’ and threats at each other. When the sun rose, the armies, each made up of more than 200 warriors, faced each other in close ranks and approached calmly and slowly, preparing to join combat. All the warriors were armed with bows and arrows, and wore armour made of wood and bark woven with cotton. When Champlain and two other French soldiers opened fire with their arquebuses, they killed the three main Iroquois chiefs and the enemy retreated. Finally, hand-to-hand combat was engaged and the allies of the French captured 10 or 12 prisoners.

Most Europeans were derisive of such relatively bloodless sport. It was “more of a pastime than to conquer or subdue enemies,” Captain John Underhill of Massachusetts Bay concluded after observing one such engagement.

Sorry, you're wrong. The Hurons (Montagnais) were at war with the Mohawks. They had those wooden picket fence forts to defend themselves from Iroquois raids. The asked Cartier to help defend them in payment for saving him and his men from scurvy.

Cartier met the St Lawrence Iroquois (the Stadaconan), who were wiped out by the Mohawk between Cartier's 3rd voyage and Champlain's trips about half a century later.

It was Champlain who fought with the Huron against by the 5 Nations from North Eastern United States. The 5 Nations were being armed with firearms by the British and Dutch. They started the Beaver Wars in 1609 and lasted almost a century.

History lessons will do you well. I can recommend some light reading.

 

[mimico_polak]

@Dimitri please do recommend some light reading.

I’m ashamed to say I know very little of Canadian history, and even less of that before the Europeans came here.

I’ve got a few books about Polish history, in Polish, and it is a painful read.

 

[bigpoppa]

@Dimitri please do recommend some light reading.

I’m ashamed to say I know very little of Canadian history, and even less of that before the Europeans came here.

I’ve got a few books about Polish history, in Polish, and it is a painful read.

there's a BUNCH of history they dont teach
For example, did you know, the soviets won WW2?

They lost the most soldiers, and killed the most nazi's (by large margins)

Its even been meme-ified at this point:

 

[bitzz]

For example, did you know, the soviets won WW2?

I cannot equate the end results of WW2 for Russia to anything like "won".
The nazis LOST to Russia,
I don't think the Russians "won" anything.
WW2 cost the Russians more than everybody else involved, combined. 75% of WW2 in Europe played out in Russia, rolled through Ukraine three or four times. Western Russia was scorched earth.
I have a hard time calling that winning.

FDR got elected on a stay out o' the war platform. Wall street bankrolls Britain with the land lease.
OH NO doesn't look good for Britain, if they lose they can't repay their loans.
TIME TO GO TO WAR BOYS.
The US came out of WW2 as a economic super power, mostly because all the other manufacturing in the world had been blasted to hell, by bombs bought with US dollars, dropped from planes manufactured and sold with US dollars flown by pilots trained in Canada....
The US came out of WW2 as the undisputed winner, but they didn't WIN ****.
Canada came out of WW2 in pretty good shape... just we don't like to brag. (Did you know they made Harley Davidson motorcycles at the Massey Ferguson plant in Toronto during the war? and the best Lee Enfields came from Long Branch Armory)

... an argument COULD be made that the Canadians won WW1.

 

[bitzz]

And everybody has heard of the fictional "Rosie the Riveter"
BUT almost no one has heard the story of the REAL Elsie MacGill

... another Canadian hero that no one has heard of.

 

[Dimitri]

I’m ashamed to say I know very little of Canadian history, and even less of that before the Europeans came here.

There are a number of books, but a quick and free summery of early French Canada can be found here for example.

Virtual Museum of New France

www.historymuseum.ca

I'll try to dig up some book names if you'd like. Most of my history books are in storage. Kids are too young still to understand them.

 

[mimico_polak]

There are a number of books, but a quick and free summery of early French Canada can be found here for example.

Virtual Museum of New France

www.historymuseum.ca

I'll try to dig up some book names if you'd like. Most of my history books are in storage. Kids are too young still to understand them.

Thanks. Don’t go out of your way but if you have a few decent books I’m interested in learning more about our history.

The Polish ones I’ve tried all have pages and pages of:
- this guy married her from X
- she married him from Y
- these married because of Z

etc etc

 

[Dimitri]

I’m interested in learning more about our history.

One of the biggest problems with Ontario's curriculum is that we teach Native, Metis and New France history in Grade 5. It seems to also be more heavily focused if you're taking French Immersion over English. For I guess obvious reasons.

By the time anyone grows up. It is long forgotten. And Hollywood takes over.

 

[nobbie48]

I cannot equate the end results of WW2 for Russia to anything like "won".
The nazis LOST to Russia,
I don't think the Russians "won" anything.
WW2 cost the Russians more than everybody else involved, combined. 75% of WW2 in Europe played out in Russia, rolled through Ukraine three or four times. Western Russia was scorched earth.
I have a hard time calling that winning.

FDR got elected on a stay out o' the war platform. Wall street bankrolls Britain with the land lease.
OH NO doesn't look good for Britain, if they lose they can't repay their loans.
TIME TO GO TO WAR BOYS.
The US came out of WW2 as a economic super power, mostly because all the other manufacturing in the world had been blasted to hell, by bombs bought with US dollars, dropped from planes manufactured and sold with US dollars flown by pilots trained in Canada....
The US came out of WW2 as the undisputed winner, but they didn't WIN ****.
Canada came out of WW2 in pretty good shape... just we don't like to brag. (Did you know they made Harley Davidson motorcycles at the Massey Ferguson plant in Toronto during the war? and the best Lee Enfields came from Long Branch Armory)

... an argument COULD be made that the Canadians won WW1.

US Military sucesses

Afghanistan..................They give up
Vietnam........................They give up
Cuba Bay of Pigs.........Lost
Korea........................... Not a win, Still a truce
WWII.............................Arrived a couple of years late. RAF had stopped Hitlers advance.
WWI..............................Another late show but handy that they dropped in
War of 1812..................Lost
American Civil War.......They win. Its hard to lose when you're fighting yourself.
American Revolution....Fortunately they won or we'd be still be stuck with them

 

[J_F]

@Dimitri please do recommend some light reading.

I’m ashamed to say I know very little of Canadian history, and even less of that before the Europeans came here.

I’ve got a few books about Polish history, in Polish, and it is a painful read.

common situation
not until very recently were kids taught anything but the Eurocentric view on Canadian history
we were fed the line about how the founders, contrary to what the Americans did
found a way to share the land in harmony with the indigenous through peaceful treaties

sure, there were treaties
written in a language one party couldn't read
negotiated and agreed to by individuals that did not have a mandate from their people
and denied legal council during the process
in this day and age, an agreement as such would be immediately set aside

burning churches is not going to help remedy anything
and that is the goal: a better deal

 

[J_F]

US Military sucesses

Afghanistan..................They give up

Iraq, the failure from conception to leaving a destroyed state allowing ISIS to form is well documented
First Gulf War, clear mandate from UN and secured a swift, utterly complete victory driving the Iraqis out of Kuwait, very tidy campaign
Grenada, invasion force large enough to topple most nations takes over a tiny island to secure the safety of 200 college students
a victory, and a good example of Reagan's TV show diplomacy, later copied

Vietnam........................They give up
Cuba Bay of Pigs.........Lost
Korea........................... Not a win, Still a truce
WWII.............................Arrived a couple of years late. RAF had stopped Hitlers advance. they did secure victory in the Pacific theatre, Europe not so much
WWI..............................Another late show but handy that they dropped in
War of 1812..................Lost, but gained territory, lost the war and won the treaty, Brits were busy dealing with Napoleon at the time
American Civil War.......They win. Its hard to lose when you're fighting yourself.
American Revolution....Fortunately they won or we'd be still be stuck with them

not arguing, just a couple of footnotes
probably a few others in there still missed

 

[油井緋色]

common situation
not until very recently were kids taught anything but the Eurocentric view on Canadian history
we were fed the line about how the founders, contrary to what the Americans did
found a way to share the land in harmony with the indigenous through peaceful treaties

sure, there were treaties
written in a language one party couldn't read
negotiated and agreed to by individuals that did not have a mandate from their people
and denied legal council during the process
in this day and age, an agreement as such would be immediately set aside

burning churches is not going to help remedy anything
and that is the goal: a better deal

World was more simple before the internet. I grew up, after moving from Taiwan, believing that we were in a better place.

Then the internet came into existence and every modern country looks the same now, there's no real good guy :')

 

[Mad Mike]

Ritualistic "wars" among bands that amounted to extended family units barely count as warfare. Especially when they peacefully would taunt each other over the night before, start their battle at dawn for religious purposes and had defined a end of battle which limited casualties on both sides but allowed a victor to be declared.

Piracy was common, but again you are talking relatively small scale situations.

To see "war" you need to go further south to central America where the Aztecs who had functioning states that could engage in warfare.

It's like the internal wars of ancient Greece. Up until Sparta's siege of Athens, battles numbered in small numbers, at dawn, and never involved the commitment of an entire city state's manpower.

Not exactly. You talk like you're a history major -- a bit of enlightening is necessary.

Aboriginals didn't live in happy harmony before the arrival of Europeans -- war was central to the way of life of many, particularly those in Eastern North America. Wars raged for a many reasons - controlling resources and trading routes, political gain, status, capturing rival women and children as replacements for those lost to death or war, and revenge. The status motive is a bit like gangster stuff - driven by young men's desire to gain the respected status of a 'skilled warrior'. An Iroquoian 'warrior' might travel alone to collect 1 Cherokee scalp -- the distinctive racial difference proved he journeyed 1000+km each way to demonstrate his skills.

The small party hit-kill-run tactics were new to Europeans, the French labelled this 'little wars (la petite guerre)', which gave way to the term Guerrilla war. The goals were simple - casualties - the prizes were possessions, scalps and prisoners.

Women and children were generally spared, given to families who needed them. Men were killed and scalped, some brought back were captured for ritual torture. Tied to a stake, fingernails pulled out, tortured for a few days, when near lifeless burned at the stake. Jesuit de Brébeuf noted ‘if the prisoner was valiant, they tore out his heart, grilled it on coals and distributed pieces to the youths; they believe it gives them courage.’

Why do you think Iroquoians had elaborate forts with multiple lines of defenses including 30' tall walls?

You mention Ritualistic "wars" among bands that amounted to extended family units barely count as warfare. The myth of peaceful battling between family units may be perpetuated by accounts of Indigenous war games, not wars. It was common for tribes to organize military games - kind of a festive ceremony that each side camped within shouting distance for a couple of days while their armies gathered. They chirped each other then went to battle at a set time. Killing wasn't the objective, bows and arrows to start then a transition to man-to-man combat. Subduing the enemy, learning battle techniques, was the objective - killing the enemy was not.

 

[bitzz]

Not exactly. You talk like you're a history major -- a bit of enlightening is necessary.

.... Subduing the enemy, learning battle techniques, was the objective - killing the enemy was not.

I think he was reacting Roadghosts post where the inference was the indigenous way of life was constant wars and wholesale slaughter, which was not the case.
... and MY inference was that constant wars and wholesale slaughter is a white man's thing.