Beer store monopoly collapsing

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boyoboy said:
ummm. very fair? student minimum is not $14 an hour. its less. $14 minimum wage is for adults.
Ford took away the $15 minimum wage. Yup, Ford says lets make sure the poorest working people in ontario lose that $1 an hour. Disgusting.

As for your $30 hour minimum wage - I've never heard that before. Don't know where you got that number.

Meanwhile, Ford tells Chinese investors he will free up our half a century saved greenbelt to development; and goes on to brag to these investors "you will make lots of money".
He's a pig at the trough; and supports rich elites better than he does his own constituents.
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Same goes for most of, if not all, the others.
 
boyoboy said:
ummm. very fair? student minimum is not $14 an hour. its less. $14 minimum wage is for adults.
Ford took away the $15 minimum wage. Yup, Ford says lets make sure the poorest working people in ontario lose that $1 an hour. Disgusting.
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Are you aware that when wages go up so do the prices?

As i have said previously i work in automotive mfg. When the last wage increase went in EVERY single supplier came back to us for a price increase. They had to not only pay their employees more an hour but now the benefits etc need adjusting, you think they are just going to let the province cut into their margins?
 
Evoex said:
Are you aware that when wages go up so do the prices?

As i have said previously i work in automotive mfg. When the last wage increase went in EVERY single supplier came back to us for a price increase. They had to not only pay their employees more an hour but now the benefits etc need adjusting, you think they are just going to let the province cut into their margins?
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I would say that not every industry is the same; the automotive industry has been struggling for a while, and companies aren't turning huge profits like some other ones. I could see them needing to adjust the price of parts for them to turn any profit and maintain the slim margins they're working with as it is. On the other hand, something like clothing manufacturing is a completely different story. A pair of running shoes costs ~$4-8 to produce but are sold for $80-200, and a large portion of that money is going to sponsorships, endorsements, and profit; even doubling the labour costs would not correspond to a large change in price, and they could easily shift their other 'costs' around to maintain the pricing. This is a good indication of the fact that pay is determined by what is the lowest they can get away with paying employees, and not what a fair wage is.

The concept of what the value of work is seems to be sort of a strange concept. I've worked in manufacturing (probably 12 years ago now) where most guys made $25-30+ an hour loading parts, and considered that to be totally fair, but would say that someone working a cash register would be only worth $12 (minimum wage at the time). The nature of the work was not that much different, as they both involved you standing around and doing some basic movements with your upper body, but the pay gap was pretty substantial.

It's just a race to the bottom at this point in time, and with automation replacing a huge amount of the workforce every year, it is easy to entice desperate people into taking jobs that pay less than they really should, which drives profit. This profit is largely not driven back into the pockets of the people; it is given back to investors, upper management, or others that will likely horde the money or spend it on luxury goods that create far less jobs than having that money in the hands of the workers and/or the middle class in general.
 
Mr.K said:
I would say that not every industry is the same; the automotive industry has been struggling for a while, and companies aren't turning huge profits like some other ones. I could see them needing to adjust the price of parts for them to turn any profit and maintain the slim margins they're working with as it is. On the other hand, something like clothing manufacturing is a completely different story. A pair of running shoes costs ~$4-8 to produce but are sold for $80-200, and a large portion of that money is going to sponsorships, endorsements, and profit; even doubling the labour costs would not correspond to a large change in price, and they could easily shift their other 'costs' around to maintain the pricing. This is a good indication of the fact that pay is determined by what is the lowest they can get away with paying employees, and not what a fair wage is.

The concept of what the value of work is seems to be sort of a strange concept. I've worked in manufacturing (probably 12 years ago now) where most guys made $25-30+ an hour loading parts, and considered that to be totally fair, but would say that someone working a cash register would be only worth $12 (minimum wage at the time). The nature of the work was not that much different, as they both involved you standing around and doing some basic movements with your upper body, but the pay gap was pretty substantial.

It's just a race to the bottom at this point in time, and with automation replacing a huge amount of the workforce every year, it is easy to entice desperate people into taking jobs that pay less than they really should, which drives profit. This profit is largely not driven back into the pockets of the people; it is given back to investors, upper management, or others that will likely horde the money or spend it on luxury goods that create far less jobs than having that money in the hands of the workers and/or the middle class in general.
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True, not every industry is the same.

However, I would counter that in your example these products are likely mfg. overseas and as such the business can eat the costs more readily then your local suppliers. I perhaps should have been more definitive in expressing that the one's who came back for the increase are local mfg. who buy raw/fab local.
 
Its pretty hard to compare a running shoe made at $6 in Sirilanka and sold for $179 in Toronto and a starter abour made for $9 and sold for $12 in Markham.
Fashion has its own matix. Hugo Boss suit at $1680. , suit at TipTop $279. why?? Hugo Boss....
 
Mr.K said:
I would say that not every industry is the same; the automotive industry has been struggling for a while, and companies aren't turning huge profits like some other ones. I could see them needing to adjust the price of parts for them to turn any profit and maintain the slim margins they're working with as it is. On the other hand, something like clothing manufacturing is a completely different story. A pair of running shoes costs ~$4-8 to produce but are sold for $80-200, and a large portion of that money is going to sponsorships, endorsements, and profit; even doubling the labour costs would not correspond to a large change in price, and they could easily shift their other 'costs' around to maintain the pricing. This is a good indication of the fact that pay is determined by what is the lowest they can get away with paying employees, and not what a fair wage is.

The concept of what the value of work is seems to be sort of a strange concept. I've worked in manufacturing (probably 12 years ago now) where most guys made $25-30+ an hour loading parts, and considered that to be totally fair, but would say that someone working a cash register would be only worth $12 (minimum wage at the time). The nature of the work was not that much different, as they both involved you standing around and doing some basic movements with your upper body, but the pay gap was pretty substantial.

It's just a race to the bottom at this point in time, and with automation replacing a huge amount of the workforce every year, it is easy to entice desperate people into taking jobs that pay less than they really should, which drives profit. This profit is largely not driven back into the pockets of the people; it is given back to investors, upper management, or others that will likely horde the money or spend it on luxury goods that create far less jobs than having that money in the hands of the workers and/or the middle class in general.
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I think there is a pretty strong argument for blaming the auto unions for the fate of their workers. Unions control the workforce, employers the work -- for things to operate harmoniously they need a symbiotic relationship with the employer. Once a union becomes parasitic, either the host dies or she kills off the parasite. Sadly a lot of auto unions chose to die, in doing so they forced automakers to learn how to be agile with their plants. A better solution might have been to look at Toyota and Honda workforce:employer relationships.

I'm guessing public sector unions are getting close to the tipping point. They hold a lot of political clout and have traditionally been supported unconditionally by most media outlets. But so did the Liberals for 15 years -- the tide can turn quickly and sooner or later the public will need to weigh in and decide how much gravy is on the train. While not a PSU, the TBS union has enjoyed the same protection as a PSU by virtue of the gov't issued monopoly. Public opinion doesn't seem to be lining up behind TBS, I'm guessing the sun is setting on that business.

How long before PSU's get renegotiated to a near market position? Who knows, but I'm guessing it's closer than they think.
 
Mr.K said:
I would say that not every industry is the same; the automotive industry has been struggling for a while, and companies aren't turning huge profits like some other ones.
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Just thought i would mention, we were about $1.4 billion in sales last year and we are not the biggest kid in the sandbox.
 
German auto unions are also pretty strong. Their workers are very well compensated and they are treated well. What’s the difference? Is it the product?
 
Mr.K said:
... There is a huge middle ground between the $80-100K they make here and $35-45K they make in some parts of the US. The other issue is typical union **** where bad teachers aren't taken out back behind the shed like they should be; I have some family in administration and they have more than a few stories about teachers getting away with the sketchiest behaviour and just having to transfer schools, but that could just as easily happen if they weren't unionized as well I suppose.
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first off, the lowest average teacher salary in the USA is $45K, some may start lower. Some states have the same dilemma as Ontario -- powerful unions that can politically punch above their weight and a large pool of 'surplus' teachers. Where you see low pay in the USA you have to remember it's relative to the cost of living and local economy/tax base and in areas that let the competitive market determine salaries. If you live in the deep south where the cost of living is low, $45K goes a lot further than $100K in Toronto.

I think the main point is unions have distorted the value of the work being done, instead of fighting for fair and equitable working conditions, they fight politics and have made holding the public hostage for unrealistic wages an art. You might say the same for police, fire and other PSUs where there are gigantic surpluses in employable candidates.
 
jc100 said:
German auto unions are also pretty strong. Their workers are very well compensated and they are treated well. What’s the difference? Is it the product?
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I think it's a societal difference in standing/class
Germany and most other western European states
put a much higher standard on technical/hands-on workers
they are well trained/educated and paid

hands-on work in NA is looked down upon
and Co's invest much less in training
they seem to have endless budgets for marketing though

and the vehicles are junk, imagine that.....
 
JavaFan said:
I think it's a societal difference in standing/class
Germany and most other western European states
put a much higher standard on technical/hands-on workers
they are well trained/educated and paid

hands-on work in NA is looked down upon
and Co's invest much less in training
they seem to have endless budgets for marketing though

and the vehicles are junk, imagine that.....
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I was always amazed by the fact that there are people in a Mercedes plant that make sure the doors make the right noise when they close.
 
jc100 said:
I was always amazed by the fact that there are people in a Mercedes plant that make sure the doors make the right noise when they close.
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Why? That seems cost-effective to me. Their buyer is likely going to whine and nit-pick every little thing so heading off problems makes sense.
 
Mr.K said:
Sales =/= Profit though. You could sell a $1 Trillion of stuff and still lose money, theoretically.
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Sure, but sales do equal demand and if there's demand there's jobs.
 
jc100 said:
I was always amazed by the fact that there are people in a Mercedes plant that make sure the doors make the right noise when they close.
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All OEMs do this. One of our bread and butter parts is door checkers. The door doesn't make the right noise, effort level is off, etc. Rejected and massive sorting costs.
 
If the tide begins to turn against the union then where will it stop (I'm not a union member in any way shape or form)...does the police union get the next 'cold shoulder' from the populace? How about the construction union? I mean hell....go to a large construction site and guys are making 100-200k/year with literally ZERO business doing that. All the power to them, but I sure as hell don't think that a guy swinging a shovel in the ground deserves 150k with massive benefits and the ability to retire at 45. Hell I want that!

But it's so protected by brothers of brothers/cousins/etc that I've seen guys come in from Europe/Asia/S. America on a worker visa, get into the union, make a stupid amount of money that any Canadian would be happy (thrilled!) with...and then **** right off to their own country.

The funniest example I had is where a 20 year old kid (union steward's son) said to me 'hell if I'm not making 150-175k/year it's not even worth getting out of bed!' ... I look forward to the day when he actually has to work for a living.
 
mimico_polak said:
The funniest example I had is where a 20 year old kid (union steward's son) said to me 'hell if I'm not making 150-175k/year it's not even worth getting out of bed!' ... I look forward to the day when he actually has to work for a living.
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With that attitude he will probably work for the union and make that money easy (even if the members no longer are).
 
GreyGhost said:
With that attitude he will probably work for the union and make that money easy (even if the members no longer are).
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You're right he will. A few young guys came in before they went to Teachers' College and Police Academy courses, or any college/university...thats it. They never left the union after they entered...the money was just too good. Why bother studying when you can make a ridiculous amount of money swinging a shovel.

Unfortunately the reality is...the jobs dry up...the layoffs start...and you're waiting for the next big job. And even sadder is that the majority of the young guys blow through their money faster than they make it...plenty of examples of 8-12 years of 150-175k/year and not a dollar to their name at the end of it. The older ones are smart and are set for life, the younger ones....takes a few dry years before they catch on.

EDIT: And the best part is...they ALL (each and every one that I know/knew) feel the same way...they deserve it...they are underpaid, and overworked, and are totally irreplaceable.
 
Evoex said:
All OEMs do this. One of our bread and butter parts is door checkers. The door doesn't make the right noise, effort level is off, etc. Rejected and massive sorting costs.
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wondering what the QA standard is on this?
typically every vehicle off the line?

of course it's gonna vary from OEM to OEM
but I'd be inclined to think some are not every car
 
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