if you wrote 'some' as a way of suggesting that not all first nations people are 'lazy' as you put it, then again, i surmise that you don't use communication skills for a living. there's a world of difference between what you just wrote and what was in your initial post that i quoted. apparently you can't see the difference, lol. . .
Attawaspiskat - $92.5 million transfered, poverty still reigns
- Thread starter JZ67
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if you wrote 'some' as a way of suggesting that not all first nations people are 'lazy' as you put it, then again, i surmise that you don't use communication skills for a living. there's a world of difference between what you just wrote and what was in your initial post that i quoted. apparently you can't see the difference, lol. . .
I think that auditing and finding out the where the money's going has a better chance of fixing the problem than giving them more of it. If past money hasn't gone to vital need, who's to say that even more money will?
I agree that it goes against the First Nations ethos of 'self-management' but really, let's not call it self-management. Bringing in an auditor isn't an experience anyone enjoys, or would consent to (let alone a mis-managing, potentially corrupt chief), but if the government signs the cheques than I'd say it's their right - and I APPLAUD it as a taxpayer! If the band were successfully managed, it would go smoothly
My dad cut his accounting teeth auditing native bands about 30 years ago. I heard stories about him being threatened with tire irons, having his lunch dropped on the floor at the band restaurant, and of a $100k tractor being written off because it was parked on a slough over winter.
I truly, and honestly, wish Native bands could self-sustain and improve upon social conditions. I wish they'd do it for themselves, and not just because the government's getting mad at blatant money wastage. I'd like to see them reconciling their culture with 21st century Canada. I think there's baby steps, but I don't see it happening in my lifetime.
Unfortunately, guys like BraveHeart's neighbor are ostracized at the reserves for being 'white' and not respecting their culture.
no one questions that the system is broken and there needs to be a fix. does an audit have to happen? yes. does there need to be greater accountability? yes.
the real issue is what the 'fix' is, and how do we get there.
i don't think it can be done by the government acting unilaterally, and i don't think it is as simple as "let's just end their status, suck it up, problem solved".
I agree - it isn't that simple. I think First Nations people in Canada are entitled to some additional rights, and I feel badly for their history.
However, against your point, I'd argue that auditing, fact-finding and finding out where the heck $30 million went and why people are living in third-world conditions is part of the solution. As the cheque-signer, I think the government has a right to know. Part of that huge bill is mine and yours.
I'd personally be happier if this were administered by Shawn Atleo's group, and if it came out of the normal operating budget of the band. This would fit the mandate of 'self-government', and make everyone involved (except the chief among shanties with a palace, three ski-doos and a Lexus SUV) a lot happier.
I think this result would be aided if the government refused to sign further cheques or approve non-budgeted expenses - except under very special circumstances.
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I think this would sovle some, but not all, of the problems and I do not think it is a long term solution. While costs would come down you would still have to deal with the failed concept of the reserve system. They work like communisim. Everything is owned by the band. There still will not be the same level of pride in one's property when they don't own it. I would stripping their special status, and giving them a settlement to get this issue dealt with. Each individual band member could then take that money and buy a house where they want to live. If they want to live in the same area, they could do that. If one of them wanted to move to Fiji, fine. Their money, their decision. Giving them houses and money in an enclosed reserve system down here is just more paternalism that isn't going to work.
As an aside, did anyone see the story about the reserve on the weekend and the deal they have with de Beers? Looks like there has been mismanagement of more than government money.
Foot meets bullet
If you wrote 'some' as a way of suggesting that not all first nations people are "lazy"as you put it, then again,I surmise that you don't use communication skills for a living. There's a world of difference between what you just wrote and what was in your initial post that I quoted. Apparently you can't see the difference, lol.
If you are going to make comments like you do, about communication skills, you should start with your own.
Laugh out Loud.
not forming complete ideas, not using complete arguments, and equating two substantially different posts as functionally identical are imho, examples of flawed communication. . .attempting to critique someone for their choice of capitalization (which i have done for 750+ posts, during which time my ability to communicate has never been questioned, other than by one other person who like yourself, tried to use it as a cheap and failed point to de-value my ideas. . .as though those are at all connected) and use of quotation marks (single versus double, which given how you went back and qualified your version of 'lazy' actually validates my usage) is hardly convincing.
btw, i think i read somewhere that you are actually yetti with a fake account. . .is that correct? you don't have to answer me here, just pm me, i promise not tell. . .fwiw, i always liked yetti, and would appreciate an un-ban
i don't disagree with an audit, and know it is necessary. just need to actually work collaboratively with the band. could the band be doing more to co-operate? probably.
i actually agree with you that the reserve system as it is currently constituted doesn't work for the remote areas. the best solution probably hasn't even been thought of yet. that's thinking much more long term than needs to be addressed in the next few days. i'd be more concerned in the short term with getting first nations people the same level of services (shelter, water, education) that people living in subsidized housing enjoy, conducting a mutually-agreed upon audit in the short-medium term, and then begin the process of systemic change, which could include changing the reserve system, re-writing the indian act, and clearing up the legal cases (not residential schools-based ones, though) related to land claims.
A- you seem to be the only one who doesnt understand what I have written
B- you seem to me like you want to dish it out, but cant take it.
C- this is a real account, and the name i use is braveheart. I am on other fourms on the internet as well
D- my brother can beat up your brother.
now, lets get back to complaining about indians and them thinking they deserve more money with no accountability
B- you seem to me like you want to dish it out, but cant take it.
C- this is a real account, and the name i use is braveheart. I am on other fourms on the internet as well
D- my brother can beat up your brother.
now, lets get back to complaining about indians and them thinking they deserve more money with no accountability
a- wrong, what's not to understand, lol?
b- wrong, what's to take?
c- that's a damn shame. i was actually hoping it was yetti. like i said, i appreciated his posts. . .
d- yawn, was that supposed to be humour? yetti was a lot funnier than you.
btw, what are you getting back to? when have you stopped complaining about 'indians'? and just who is arguing that "they deserve more money with no accountability"??? or is this just a straw-man logical fallacy argument on your part? if so, fail.
I bet the band would cooperate if the government stopped sending cheques!
Or better yet, the band would clear up their own act and 'self-govern'...
somewhat related: was shopping for diamonds today, and the shop i was at had 'victor' diamonds, proudly proclaiming their quality and canadian origin. . .turns out that 'victor' diamonds are actually debeers diamonds from attawapiskat. . .
A little reality check from the real world of construction, regarding Attawapiskat.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/12/02/f-first-nations-housing.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/12/02/f-first-nations-housing.html
Holmes may be many things, but he ain't cheap.
I'm well aware of the issues, of abuse. Holmes is talking about spending a little more, so that the homes don't mould or fall apart on their own and having the people who will live in them be trained and involved in their construction, so that they feel some pride of ownership. I see no issue with either concept, as it addresses both issues. The answer is to shovel more money in that direction, ONCE, so that it doesn't have to be done again every 5 years.
homme de fer
Well-known member
Out of all the ideas bandied about, Mike Holmes' is the best yet as it addresses everyones concern:
- the band gets its houses
- it won't cost the Feds any more than building "standard" housing that doesn't seem to last on the reserves
- First Nation people get to learn some skills as they should be responsible for building them
- Modular steel homes will last MUCH longer than "standard" homes such that we shouldn't have to address this again for a long time
I honestly can't see any negative points with this solution.
Now, in the long term, no money should be handed out to anyone by any level of government without some sort of accountability. The solution to this problem has been debated for decades and I fear will last decades longer as one government passes the buck to the next. A lot of scorn has been heaped on the Conservative government for this fiasco, however, if the previous government was so great why didn't they solve the First Nation housing issue in their 10+ year of reign? The answer is that it wasn't important and it was far easier to leave the issue for someone else to resolve in the future. As far as I'm concern, our current government is the one that is unlucky enough to be holding the "hot potato" when the music stopped.
- the band gets its houses
- it won't cost the Feds any more than building "standard" housing that doesn't seem to last on the reserves
- First Nation people get to learn some skills as they should be responsible for building them
- Modular steel homes will last MUCH longer than "standard" homes such that we shouldn't have to address this again for a long time
I honestly can't see any negative points with this solution.
Now, in the long term, no money should be handed out to anyone by any level of government without some sort of accountability. The solution to this problem has been debated for decades and I fear will last decades longer as one government passes the buck to the next. A lot of scorn has been heaped on the Conservative government for this fiasco, however, if the previous government was so great why didn't they solve the First Nation housing issue in their 10+ year of reign? The answer is that it wasn't important and it was far easier to leave the issue for someone else to resolve in the future. As far as I'm concern, our current government is the one that is unlucky enough to be holding the "hot potato" when the music stopped.
There is a problem with Mike's idea. First Nations do not want completed homes. IIRC there is something in the funding model that provides more money if the houses aren't finished, so many reserves intentionally do not completely finish the exterior of their homes. As Mike's homes start as containers, the exterior is basically done already and it will mess up the funding :/.
I went snowmobiling through a reserve in Northern Quebec (with road access), not a single house was finished, but everybody had a snowmobile and/or a reasonably new jacked up truck or jeep. In at least this particular reserve, it was obviously not a lack of funds preventing the completion of the houses.
I went snowmobiling through a reserve in Northern Quebec (with road access), not a single house was finished, but everybody had a snowmobile and/or a reasonably new jacked up truck or jeep. In at least this particular reserve, it was obviously not a lack of funds preventing the completion of the houses.
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Wants and needs are not necessarily congruent. When you're receiving public money it should be about needs, not wants. At a certain point you lose the choice.
I just gotta say...
Stop saying stolen land.
We took it. We took it because we were able to take it just like everyone else who conquered in the past took whatever they wanted.
**** them if they lost. **** them if they can't get it back. If you can't adapt to nature (and don't kid yourselves, humans are just another animal on the planet, or virus depending on how you look at it) then you dodo bird and die.
**** you.
In all honesty they should be getting back to living like they used to so when this planet goes to hell in a few years they can still survive (and maybe have the last laugh) because I really doubt more than 10% of this population could survive left to it's own devices.
This country breeds in weakness and needs a purge anyway
We didn't slaughter all of them. We let them live and it was up to them to fit in or **** off.
Same as when we owned the french. They lost but we said, keep your heritage, keep your language and it's been nothing but a reason for some anglo/french to spend their lives trying to **** each other....
Typical Canada and it's do nothing about it approach because it's too hard to make a call without sucking off every crying person in the country.
Stop saying stolen land.
We took it. We took it because we were able to take it just like everyone else who conquered in the past took whatever they wanted.
**** them if they lost. **** them if they can't get it back. If you can't adapt to nature (and don't kid yourselves, humans are just another animal on the planet, or virus depending on how you look at it) then you dodo bird and die.
**** you.
In all honesty they should be getting back to living like they used to so when this planet goes to hell in a few years they can still survive (and maybe have the last laugh) because I really doubt more than 10% of this population could survive left to it's own devices.
This country breeds in weakness and needs a purge anyway
We didn't slaughter all of them. We let them live and it was up to them to fit in or **** off.
Same as when we owned the french. They lost but we said, keep your heritage, keep your language and it's been nothing but a reason for some anglo/french to spend their lives trying to **** each other....
Typical Canada and it's do nothing about it approach because it's too hard to make a call without sucking off every crying person in the country.
