I'm not gonna pretend that I know diddly-squat about native issues. But how much is enough? What's the magic number in terms of cash that the federal government can give and then be officially "sorry"?
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Attawaspiskat - $92.5 million transfered, poverty still reigns
- Thread starter JZ67
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I'm not gonna pretend that I know diddly-squat about native issues. But how much is enough? What's the magic number in terms of cash that the federal government can give and then be officially "sorry"?
Thats the problem, it'll never be enough for all the whiners.
Well, we know that $90M isn't enough. I wonder what the cost for the average Torontonian is in terms of the free services we receive. I bet you it's more than the $17K per person those natives were receiving per person.
invictus43
Well-known member
Especially when their health care comes out of that money..
87m6chris
Well-known member
It's not about being sorry, that's not the point. Treaties were signed, agreements were made and they have not been kept. Every level of government has reneged on those commitments in varying degrees since day one. Hard to see it as anything other than institutional racism stemming from some sense of superiority
over the natives.
I don't think it is a sense of superiority any more (although that used to be true). Most people just want equality. The treaties that were signed back then (in this case Treaty 9) don't make any sense and looking at them a hundred years later--the indians got a bad deal. That has lead to modern day the interpretation of the treaty in a manner that the people that signed it (on both sides) never intended.
The real issue with remote reserves like this is that they are destined to fail. It is simple economics. Think of the remote reserve as a bucket and the money in the reserve as water. It is a good way to illustrate the problem. So long and all the things that the people on the reserve want can be sourced in our around the reserve, the amount of the water in the bucket stays the same (just who in the community has the money changes). To the extent that the people on the reserve need (or want) things that cannot be made or sourced from on or around the reserve, that is like putting a hole in the bucket--the money flows out (to southern Canada) to buy that stuff. The more things that they reserve needs or wants that needs to be sourced from far away, the more figurative holes there are in the bucket. The only way to keep the community from going broke is to keep filling the bucket up or plugging the holes. Assuming the holes are never going to be filled (unless the reserve wants to go back to living off the land like their ancestors), you need to look at filling the bucket. This can be done through commercial means (tourism or mining or forestry, if possible), but, if not, the only way to fill the bucket up is through government grants or members of the band leaving the reserve and shipping the money back. As people have said, while the $90 million sounds like a lot, it is not when you consider that it is probably pretty much the entire source of income for the reserve. While I am guessing, I bet that to support that reserve alone at just a modest level of living similar to an average community, would cost probably close to about $40 to $50 million per year.
The original treaty did not commit Canada to giving them a specific standard of living in perpetuity. There was supposed to be responsibility on both sides (it was after all a treaty and if the band views itself as a nation, it should take some responsibility for looking after itself). Both sides have failed. In my view, it is time to go back to the drawing board and start again. Make a payment to redress the past wrongs (though I am not sure why I am paying for the sins of my ancestors, it needs to be done to move on), give them the same rights as ever other Canadian and help them integrate properly into modern Canada.
If they want to live the "old way", I can support that too. But they just can't have one foot in either camp.
Very well said.
invictus43
Well-known member
Unfortunately, I don't think the answer can be summed up in a one-liner..I know people like simple solutions but..
Yeah, really. The way the current system is set up, all we're doing is perpetuating a permanent welfare state among native bands.
Give them each a lump sum payment, call it even, and call them Canadians with no special status, grants, or tax exemptions any more. Then let communities like this decide if they can be viable entities on their own, or whether it's time to recognize that it's time to fold the tents and move elsewhere.
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daught
Well-known member
There is one thing that makes them very different. We, non natives, chose or someone in our family chose to come here. They din't have a choice on who to allow in or not. Their basic way of life, that extends far beyond a lump sum of money has been shaken. Dunno what to do. I doubt any one does, but past present and future generations will pay for some mistakes.
This seems to be the only option.
Those of us who were born after our parents' decision didn't have a choice in their decisions either. The only choices available to us were whether to follow in the same steps as our parents, or to blaze our own way to a better future if we were not satisfied with the life taken on by our parents.
this is far from a simple solution.
i was dead serious. let's find out how sincere we are about solving the problems we created by isolating first nations people in the middle of nowhere. let's put them back into lands within reasonable distance of actual settlements.
something tells me that 'we' are not going to do that. . .
There are a couple high level problems with the aboriginal situation which I think applies everywhere and not just to the specific situation we find ourselves in Canada to be in.
First off contracts (or treaties) should not be legally allowed to go beyond a single generation without being ratified. Contracts were signed and put into place before I or even my grandparents were born. Clearly, I cannot be held to that agreement since it was impossible for me to vote against it, or even be aware of it, or anything, as I didn't exist yet.
Children should not be rewarded for the suffering of their ancestors. Just as we no longer punish the son for the crimes of the father, so should we not permit the reward of the sons for the suffering of the father. I'm certain that some of my ancestors where mistreated one way or another, some probably pretty severally, where is my cheque? Japanese who were interned during WWII got settlements, but THEY were the actually ones who suffered. How many generations down the line should be pay reparations to? I say none.
First off contracts (or treaties) should not be legally allowed to go beyond a single generation without being ratified. Contracts were signed and put into place before I or even my grandparents were born. Clearly, I cannot be held to that agreement since it was impossible for me to vote against it, or even be aware of it, or anything, as I didn't exist yet.
Children should not be rewarded for the suffering of their ancestors. Just as we no longer punish the son for the crimes of the father, so should we not permit the reward of the sons for the suffering of the father. I'm certain that some of my ancestors where mistreated one way or another, some probably pretty severally, where is my cheque? Japanese who were interned during WWII got settlements, but THEY were the actually ones who suffered. How many generations down the line should be pay reparations to? I say none.
daught
Well-known member
The Japanese no longer suffer. The Natives, have issues right now. It doesn't matter what happened in the past, and the blame game solves nothing. The fact is, we have a problem right now. A lump sum of money might calm things for 20 years, but when they run out, I bet crime rate will sky rocket. Then our kids will have to pay for policing and incarceration way more than what we pay now. These issues stretch way beyond a generation.
Do away with the Indian crap and start treating them like everyone else.
If no one in a town can afford a house, pay the bills, live in the most basic ways (to today's standards), will the government give that town a bunch of money to try to stay there? I don't think so. A reserve is a town, if it can't survive on it's own, then it disappears.
If no one in a town can afford a house, pay the bills, live in the most basic ways (to today's standards), will the government give that town a bunch of money to try to stay there? I don't think so. A reserve is a town, if it can't survive on it's own, then it disappears.
how many more handouts do the indians want ? they live by their own rules until they need something else, then they whine and cry about it, until someone else fixes their problem.
as others have said, its an indian reserve, run by themselves. if the town has failed, pack up and move on, find some work in another town.
i have zero sympathy for struggling indians, especially when they get away with everything being handed to them.
give me their benefits and i'd never complain
as others have said, its an indian reserve, run by themselves. if the town has failed, pack up and move on, find some work in another town.
i have zero sympathy for struggling indians, especially when they get away with everything being handed to them.
give me their benefits and i'd never complain
will you also trade everything else that comes with living on a remote reserve, or do you get to pick and choose?
No, he would move, just like they can. No one is holding a gun to their head.... Or here's an idea, you want to be so proud of your heritage, start living like them. If they don't want to move to civilization and join the rest of Canada, then they can live in longhouses or tepee's just like they'd be if it weren't for us coming here.
