Attawaspiskat - $92.5 million transfered, poverty still reigns

[braveheart]

Forum Sponsor

my question was a simple one. would you trade all of the experiences that living on a remote reserve comes with, in order to get the benefits they 'enjoy'? would you take being born and raised in a remote community, living your entire life in poor conditions, with inadequate schooling and poor sanitation/food/drinking water, in order to get these benefits? it also comes with a damaging socialization and sense of hopelessness. . .is all of this worth it to receive those 'benefits'???

so easy for us to say, sitting in our comfortable homes, behind computers, most of us having enjoyed most of what canada has to offer. . .

my neighbour enjoys all those benefits, and he doesnt live on a reserve.

I think you should change your name to awrong56.

the simple fact is this, if the people that lived there ( under these horrible conditions ) had any sense of caring for their children, they would pack up and move on, to a better situation, so their kids wont have to live they way that they did.

just like any responsible parent is obliged to do.

 

[mikbusa]

what they object to is the government bringing in an overpriced auditor (somewhere over $500k/salary)

I see, they don't like to piss away money. lol

 

[ZX600]

"Free", because we don't pay out of pocket: bad name. But yeah, obviously they're not; that's why I wondered out loud about the costs associated with our services....

....Yes, obviously we as tax payers, have a right to know where our money goes. But dude, it's only %0.0003 (I looked it up) of Canada's total expenditures for 2011. The only reason this has become such a big deal is because it's being used as a political tool by the government. The Chiefs didn't want an auditor because they know this and I guess, by booting the bean-counter, was saying, they wouldn't have any part of it. The move had a political motive. And, At 1300$ per day, I can see why they wouldn't want an auditor. Especially, when there are people in that community without homes to live in.

Is there corruption here. Maybe. Is this crisis the fault of the Attawapiskat "government". Maybe. I would gladly for

k$2.67 or my share of this expense to help make sure there's one less person on the street.

No matter what the ulterior motives are, or even the politic reasons behind it, there should be no excuse for their books not to be audited.

What everyone is failing to see is that it is their own people screwing them over. If the auditor gets access to the books and it is discovered that the funds are mismanaged, a solution can be put forward so that the money that is wasted actually goes to benefit the people that needed it on the community.

This is a win win solution, the only ones that lose are the chiefs because their limitless money fountain will be cut every time they scream foul

 

[afong56]

my neighbour enjoys all those benefits, and he doesnt live on a reserve.

I think you should change your name to awrong56.

the simple fact is this, if the people that lived there ( under these horrible conditions ) had any sense of caring for their children, they would pack up and move on, to a better situation, so their kids wont have to live they way that they did.

just like any responsible parent is obliged to do.

so in other words, yes, your neighbour is a status indian. thanks for finally answering the question. now did he actually grow up on a remote reserve and relocate or was he from a local, southern ontario reserve? because those are apples to oranges in making a comparison. . .

go back and actually read post #46 this time.

their plight may have been publicized in the last little while, but it's been a reality for generations. breaking out of a generational cycle is not easy as pie. if that were the case, north koreans would have revolted years ago, and slavery never would have lasted in the american south.

 

[braveheart]

so in other words, yes, your neighbour is a status indian. thanks for finally answering the question. now did he actually grow up on a remote reserve and relocate or was he from a local, southern ontario reserve? because those are apples to oranges in making a comparison. . .

go back and actually read post #46 this time.

their plight may have been publicized in the last little while, but it's been a reality for generations. breaking out of a generational cycle is not easy as pie. if that were the case, north koreans would have revolted years ago, and slavery never would have lasted in the american south.

now you are comparing some lazy native indians to slavery ? give your head a shake.

slaves would have been killed if they tried to escape. NO ONE IS MAKING THESE INDIANS LIVE IN THESE CONDITIONS

it IS easy as pie. pack up the wife and kids, and move on to another town, with better opportunites.

maybe stay at a shelter until they get back on their feet ( shelters have clean water, y'know )

Its actually quite comical reading your asinine comments. thank you for that

 

[rutakin]

i would have went with Idiotic.

we dont owe these people anything that they havent already received tenfold.

i didnt steal their land

my parents didnt steal their land

my parents grand parents didnt steal their land

and then keep going another 5 generations of people that didnt steal their land


just for arguments sake, lets say we did steal it.

Get over it. so what if some indian got screwed out of their land 500 years ago. they've had plenty of time since then to deal with it

all present day aboriginals who ***** about getting screwed over by the white man are nothing but sponges trying to squeeze every little dollar out of the gov't becasue they feel they are owed it.

guess what. They arent owed anything.

if my great great great great great grandfather had something taken from him, do you think that I should deserve what was stolen from him ?

indian status cards, tax benefits, own rules.... what more do these friggin people want ?

the only way to stop a dog from begging at the table is to smack its nose when it does. lol

this is funny because your avatar is a dude that started a war because he though he was owed.

 

[braveheart]

lol just a name and a picture. dont look for any hidden meanings

but it is kinda funny.

 

[rutakin]

now you are comparing some lazy native indians to slavery ? give your head a shake.

slaves would have been killed if they tried to escape. NO ONE IS MAKING THESE INDIANS LIVE IN THESE CONDITIONS

it IS easy as pie. pack up the wife and kids, and move on to another town, with better opportunites.

maybe stay at a shelter until they get back on their feet ( shelters have clean water, y'know )

Its actually quite comical reading your asinine comments. thank you for that

when you have no money, proper education or clothing and your kids to feed, and no car its kind of hard to pack up and leave.

why don't homeless ppl on the streets in toronto leave there cardboard boxes and go to shelters?

 

[braveheart]

its thinking like that that leads to laziness.

always thinking up an excuse as to why you cant.

the world is filled with stories of people doing incredible things to survive.

would you not do anything it took to make sure your children had a better chance than you ? I would .

as far as homeless people on the streets... take your pic .. mental issues, Pride, denial.. could be any number of reasons.

 

[rutakin]

its thinking like that that leads to laziness.

always thinking up an excuse as to why you cant.

the world is filled with stories of people doing incredible things to survive.

would you not do anything it took to make sure your children had a better chance than you ? I would .

as far as homeless people on the streets... take your pic .. mental issues, Pride, denial.. could be any number of reasons.

you see it as laziness, maybe they see it as attempting to preserve they culture, skills, arts even if it means living in poverty.

if everyone leaves there species will go extinct. Maybe they don't want to become beige like everyone else will be.

 

[ZX600]

if everyone leaves there species will go extinct. Maybe they don't want to become beige like everyone else will be.

This thread is going full







pretty soon

 

[braveheart]

so then it comes full circle.

they want to preserve their way of life, so we should just shut up and give them money.

we offer then other solutions, but that wont do ?

 

[rutakin]

so then it comes full circle.

they want to preserve their way of life, so we should just shut up and give them money.

we offer then other solutions, but that wont do ?

its sad that society is all about money. how much is a culture worth? is better to watch relics in a museum? how many languages have disappeared? look at all the amazon tribes lost? how much knowledge has been lost with them?

how much money is that worth? Goverments will find money to give to causes on a world scale because everyone will see that but no one wants to talk about the smell coming from their own *****.

 

[ZX600]

its sad that society is all about money. how much is a culture worth? is better to watch relics in a museum? how many languages have disappeared? look at all the amazon tribes lost? how much knowledge has been lost with them?

how much money is that worth? Goverments will find money to give to causes on a world scale because everyone will see that but no one wants to talk about the smell coming from their own *****.

That is perfectly fine, but if you are given money then don't piss it away. Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence should sell her cadillac and buy sleeping bags for her people

 

[CdnVStar]

what they object to is the government bringing in an overpriced auditor (somewhere over $500k/salary) and then putting it on the dime of the band (when they are already claiming that money is being misspent).

pretty sure you could get a team of forensic accountants for that kind of money.

Reference please? I don't think I saw anywhere where it said how much the auditor made. What I thought it said was that HIS FIRM was being paid $1,300 per day for his time. If his firm is getting $1,300 per day for his time and they are paying him $500K, they are not very good business men. $1,300 x 250 days (roughly the number of working days in a year) only equals $325,000. Looks like they are prepared to take $175,000 hit. They must like him a lot. This ignores all of the other business elements and equates gross income with profit.

As someone who works in professional services, this is nowhere near true. For the record, $1,300 would get you less than 2 hours of my time and I must be worth it as I have clients that are willing to pay. What most people don't realize is that "crazy" rate includes rent, insurance, taxes, payment to my employees (and the employer portion of their taxes), purchasing all the desks, computer equipment, etc... that everyone in my office uses, etc...I am not complaining about what I make. I make a very good living, but it touches a nerve when you multiple some daily or hourly rate and somehow think that all us doctors, lawyers and accountants, etc... take all that money and put it directly into our pockets.

Now back to the issue at hand. Please don't confuse me with people who seem to think that we give them too much money and we should cut them loose. I would be prepared to pay to make the issue go away, but going back to my example, it is pointless to pour water into a bucket full of holes. The problem needs to be fixed and that takes a different type of solution--indians need to be integrated into regular society, with no special rights or privileges. Doing this will take time and money. I am prepared to help pay for a solution. I don't think we should pay to perpetuate the problem. The problem is there are way too many people (in government, at the reserves, consultants, lawyers, etc...) that make too much money off the current system to want it to be changed. Fixing the problem will affect THEIR living and they won't let that happen.

 

[afong56]

now you are comparing some lazy native indians to slavery ? give your head a shake.

slaves would have been killed if they tried to escape. NO ONE IS MAKING THESE INDIANS LIVE IN THESE CONDITIONS

it IS easy as pie. pack up the wife and kids, and move on to another town, with better opportunites.

maybe stay at a shelter until they get back on their feet ( shelters have clean water, y'know )

Its actually quite comical reading your asinine comments. thank you for that

hello, reading comprehension fail again.

i drew the comparison to both north korea and slavery to make the point that without a frame of reference, if they are born into a reality, it is damn hard to break out of that cycle. don't understand why that is so difficult for you to understand.

i am not suggesting that they are slaves.
and for the record, making a crass generalization that all first nations people on those reserves are "some lazy indians" is pretty damn ignorant.

 

[afong56]

Reference please? I don't think I saw anywhere where it said how much the auditor made. What I thought it said was that HIS FIRM was being paid $1,300 per day for his time. If his firm is getting $1,300 per day for his time and they are paying him $500K, they are not very good business men. $1,300 x 250 days (roughly the number of working days in a year) only equals $325,000. Looks like they are prepared to take $175,000 hit. They must like him a lot. This ignores all of the other business elements and equates gross income with profit.

As someone who works in professional services, this is nowhere near true. For the record, $1,300 would get you less than 2 hours of my time and I must be worth it as I have clients that are willing to pay. What most people don't realize is that "crazy" rate includes rent, insurance, taxes, payment to my employees (and the employer portion of their taxes), purchasing all the desks, computer equipment, etc... that everyone in my office uses, etc...I am not complaining about what I make. I make a very good living, but it touches a nerve when you multiple some daily or hourly rate and somehow think that all us doctors, lawyers and accountants, etc... take all that money and put it directly into our pockets.

Now back to the issue at hand. Please don't confuse me with people who seem to think that we give them too much money and we should cut them loose. I would be prepared to pay to make the issue go away, but going back to my example, it is pointless to pour water into a bucket full of holes. The problem needs to be fixed and that takes a different type of solution--indians need to be integrated into regular society, with no special rights or privileges. Doing this will take time and money. I am prepared to help pay for a solution. I don't think we should pay to perpetuate the problem. The problem is there are way too many people (in government, at the reserves, consultants, lawyers, etc...) that make too much money off the current system to want it to be changed. Fixing the problem will affect THEIR living and they won't let that happen.

the issue in my post is not so much the amount of money, it was included only in parentheses, not sure why you make that the key point. it has more to do with the principle behind the government saying one thing and then doing another--like a scolding, paternalistic father, "stop mis-spending that money you so desperately need. . .but first we're going to spend some more of it for you. . ." just doesn't make sense. strikes me as pretty heavy handed to claim this move was done co-operatively when it clearly wasn't.

now, if you are so ready to commit to a "different type of solution", then would you accept what i have already proposed, namely that their reserves should be moved to close proximity to settled areas in the south, instead of in the middle of b.f. nowhere? trade lands up there with lands down here.

remoteness is undoubtedly connected to the high expense related to running these reserves and contributes to the issues with education, poor drinking water, home construction, materials availability, etc. let's tie their water system into the golden horseshoe, attach their schools in affiliation with say the thames valley district school board, and within 100kms of a major urban centre. costs for housing construction would drop immensely, attracting quality teachers would be easier, and no first nations resident could then claim to be isolated with nothing to do--it furthermore would make it easier for them to find jobs. this would create a fundamental shift in their quality of life and furthermore would make oversight of spending easier to perform.

wonder if this would ever fly? i'm guessing no.

 

[braveheart]

hello, reading comprehension fail again.



i am not suggesting that they are slaves.
and for the record, making a crass generalization that all first nations people on those reserves are "some lazy indians" is pretty damn ignorant.

its fun to see you shoot yourself in the foot. I never made a crass generalization. which is why i specifically said SOME

not all indians are like that. My neighbour is the least lazy guy i know.

as a matter of fact, he's packing up his stuff right now and heading out to the reserve becasue according to you, they dont have a choice of where to live

 

[honduhmatic]

"stop mis-spending that money you so desperately need. . .but first we're going to spend some more of it for you. . ." just doesn't make sense.

I think that auditing and finding out the where the money's going has a better chance of fixing the problem than giving them more of it. If past money hasn't gone to vital need, who's to say that even more money will?

I agree that it goes against the First Nations ethos of 'self-management' but really, let's not call it self-management. Bringing in an auditor isn't an experience anyone enjoys, or would consent to (let alone a mis-managing, potentially corrupt chief), but if the government signs the cheques than I'd say it's their right - and I APPLAUD it as a taxpayer! If the band were successfully managed, it would go smoothly

My dad cut his accounting teeth auditing native bands about 30 years ago. I heard stories about him being threatened with tire irons, having his lunch dropped on the floor at the band restaurant, and of a $100k tractor being written off because it was parked on a slough over winter.

I truly, and honestly, wish Native bands could self-sustain and improve upon social conditions. I wish they'd do it for themselves, and not just because the government's getting mad at blatant money wastage. I'd like to see them reconciling their culture with 21st century Canada. I think there's baby steps, but I don't see it happening in my lifetime.

Unfortunately, guys like BraveHeart's neighbor are ostracized at the reserves for being 'white' and not respecting their culture.

 

[omnivore]

Insanity.
Trying to create equality, by treating different groups of people unequally.
That is how we got here.........more of the same is gonna fix the problem?

Time for a level playing field across the board.

Forum Sponsor