Are Unions done?

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OliverK said:
I'm surprised how many people are against democracy in the workplace, and think, without the countervailing force of collective bargaining, they will continue to have the labour protections they have today.
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I would argue that the presence of a union does NOT introduce "democracy". They introduce a situation where they hold a gun to management's head by going on strike. They lead to insane work rules that breed inefficiency and laziness. It becomes impossible for companies to get rid of incompetent workers.

Even if you accept the concept of unionization, if it were "democratic" then it should be as easy to kick a union OUT as it is to bring them in. It never is.
 
Brian P said:
I would argue that the presence of a union does NOT introduce "democracy". They introduce a situation where they hold a gun to management's head by going on strike. They lead to insane work rules that breed inefficiency and laziness. It becomes impossible for companies to get rid of incompetent workers.

Even if you accept the concept of unionization, if it were "democratic" then it should be as easy to kick a union OUT as it is to bring them in. It never is.
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Certification of a union requires 50%+1 votes of the workers. Chief stewards and above are elected by their members. Union constitutions are ratified by union member vote. Unless arbitrated, members vote on contracts and whether to strike.

Workers can and do get fired. It's up to the company to do its due diligence during the disciplinary process. Unfortunately, management is more incompetent than not.

Want to decertify? Get a majority of your union brothers and sisters to vote for decertification. What's so hard about that?

Germany has a successful economy with very high unionization. "Works Councils" gives members much more say in the boardroom. German executives don't have ridiculously high compensation. The results speak for themselves.

In the States, Right-to-work-for-less laws drive down wages. States that have passed such laws have lower median incomes than others who have not gone down that road.
 
What a union does is put the employer an the employee on an even footing. Here's the universal situation:
-A worker can't live without a job
-A company can keep doing business if a single employee leaves
-A company can't live without its entire workforce
If we have the company negotiating with a single employee, there is a disparity of power. He needs them more than they need him. If the company is negotiating with the entire workforce, they both need each other and the terms of the deal are more likely to be fair. Of course, sometimes the company negotiates poorly and the workforce gets a sweet deal (those events are usually publicized in right-wing media as reasons why unions should be eliminated), sometimes the union negotiates poorly and the workers get a raw deal (typically publicized by the right-wing media as reasons why the unions should be eliminated), and in a majority of cases a fair deal for everyone gets negotiated (not mentioned by the right-wing media). However, overall, if both sides have something to lose, the situation stops being highway robbery and becomes an actual negotiation, which certain business interests do not wish to do. Slaves are cheaper than employees.
 
OliverK said:
Certification of a union requires 50%+1 votes of the workers. Chief stewards and above are elected by their members. Union constitutions are ratified by union member vote. Unless arbitrated, members vote on contracts and whether to strike.

Workers can and do get fired. It's up to the company to do its due diligence during the disciplinary process. Unfortunately, management is more incompetent than not.

Want to decertify? Get a majority of your union brothers and sisters to vote for decertification. What's so hard about that?

Germany has a successful economy with very high unionization. "Works Councils" gives members much more say in the boardroom. German executives don't have ridiculously high compensation. The results speak for themselves.

In the States, Right-to-work-for-less laws drive down wages. States that have passed such laws have lower median incomes than others who have not gone down that road.
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The above is generally true but it only works if both sides use some basic intelligence. Unfortunately most workers hear what they want to hear and the pro-union promise more of everything convinces them that they deserve a bigger piece of the pie. Management reacts accordingly.

Petty politics enters the fray as well. If you aren't popular with the union steward (Maybe you weren't greedy enough) and at the same time your job becomes at risk, the union fails to side with you on a grievance.
 
The general public might be a bit more sympathetic if unions were stripped of the "right" to use picket lines to barricade and hold an employer under siege conditions, impeding the right of the general public to come and go as they wish without delay.

The Toronto garbage strike of the other year forced people to drop garbage off at local temporary drop-offs, where union siege lines forced already ******-off residents to wait while picketers imposed a completely arbitrary "delay" on each person waiting in line. Striking bus drivers in York blocking entrances and allowing cars through only after what they thought was an appropriate delay. Striking education workers blocking entrances to campuses and allowing students and non-striking staff through only after arbitrarily-defined delays. Picket line violence, both by union members and by people ****** off at being held hostage by them.

And you wonder why people have lost respect and sympathy for unions? Strip them of the ability to hold picket blockades.
 
nobbie48 said:
Are we talking deflation? That would destroy the western economy. No one will hold onto shares of any company that will be worth less in the future.
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Inflation and deflation is a measure of pricing, not necessarily worth. If costs go down sufficiently to enable pricing to go down, a company's net worth need not affected.
 
turbodish said:
The general public might be a bit more sympathetic if unions were stripped of the "right" to use picket lines to barricade and hold an employer under siege conditions, impeding the right of the general public to come and go as they wish without delay.

The Toronto garbage strike of the other year forced people to drop garbage off at local temporary drop-offs, where union siege lines forced already ******-off residents to wait while picketers imposed a completely arbitrary "delay" on each person waiting in line. Striking bus drivers in York blocking entrances and allowing cars through only after what they thought was an appropriate delay. Striking education workers blocking entrances to campuses and allowing students and non-striking staff through only after arbitrarily-defined delays. Picket line violence, both by union members and by people ****** off at being held hostage by them.

And you wonder why people have lost respect and sympathy for unions? Strip them of the ability to hold picket blockades.
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I agree, that is not a good PR tactic.
 
turbodish said:
The general public might be a bit more sympathetic if unions were stripped of the "right" to use picket lines to barricade and hold an employer under siege conditions, impeding the right of the general public to come and go as they wish without delay.

The Toronto garbage strike of the other year forced people to drop garbage off at local temporary drop-offs, where union siege lines forced already ******-off residents to wait while picketers imposed a completely arbitrary "delay" on each person waiting in line. Striking bus drivers in York blocking entrances and allowing cars through only after what they thought was an appropriate delay. Striking education workers blocking entrances to campuses and allowing students and non-striking staff through only after arbitrarily-defined delays. Picket line violence, both by union members and by people ****** off at being held hostage by them.

And you wonder why people have lost respect and sympathy for unions? Strip them of the ability to hold picket blockades.
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How do these people (usually on public property) stop other tax payers from using the driveways or thoroughfares etc. Cant the police remove them for especially when they assult members of the public by shoving and pushing people away etc? Cant the company have them removed if they are on private property? Do the police do ANYTHING in this city?
 
What is the difference between the government offering grants to the buyers or the sellers when the grant only applied to buyers who's only was one seller??

"The Harper visit to which Olive refers was to promote a tax break for the purchasers of locomotives, not the manufacturers"

This is symantics on both the author and Harpers who got the tax break.

Goes to show what "facts" can be depending on which side fo the fence you are on.







eastcoast_gsx said:
Some facts on the EMD story. Good ones at that.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/06/caterpillar-electro-motive-diesel/
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gwelfmike said:
What is the difference between the government offering grants to the buyers or the sellers when the grant only applied to buyers who's only was one seller??

"The Harper visit to which Olive refers was to promote a tax break for the purchasers of locomotives, not the manufacturers"

This is symantics on both the author and Harpers who got the tax break.

Goes to show what "facts" can be depending on which side fo the fence you are on.
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What????
 
Harper offers a "grant" or "rebate" of up to 5 million dollars to the purchasers of locomotives , but the catch is, you must purchase the locomotives from EDO, so what is the difference between the 5 millions going to the purchaser or the seller????

UOTE=caboose483;1724724]What????[/QUOTE]
 
The unions have a place and a purpose, in many cases they just do not seem to understand what those things are anymore. A friend of mine works for a company that has vehicles with serious mechanical issues (wheels falling off, basic safety items not working, etc.). I am not going to name the company...

The union is fighting for higher wages and they are totally ignoring the safety issues! The best anyone can get is report it to your supervisor, of course they do not care. So while the union is not responsible for safety they are responsible for the greater good of the workers so they should make this a contract issue (working conditions) but they do not. Pretty much sums up (to me) where things are going wrong these days.
 
backmarkerducati said:
The unions have a place and a purpose, in many cases they just do not seem to understand what those things are anymore. A friend of mine works for a company that has vehicles with serious mechanical issues (wheels falling off, basic safety items not working, etc.). I am not going to name the company...

The union is fighting for higher wages and they are totally ignoring the safety issues! The best anyone can get is report it to your supervisor, of course they do not care. So while the union is not responsible for safety they are responsible for the greater good of the workers so they should make this a contract issue (working conditions) but they do not. Pretty much sums up (to me) where things are going wrong these days.
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Tell him to make an anonymous report to MTO. That will get things fixed.
 
DownUnder said:
Cant the police remove them for especially when they assult members of the public by shoving and pushing people?
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You're expecting a union of thugs to act against another union acting like thugs? Not gonna happen.
 
gwelfmike said:
Harper offers a "grant" or "rebate" of up to 5 million dollars to the purchasers of locomotives , but the catch is, you must purchase the locomotives from EDO, so what is the difference between the 5 millions going to the purchaser or the seller????
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Tax breaks for investing in new equipment or capital expenditure is pretty common. Good for the company that's buying the locos, good for the people that maintain and operate them, good for the company that sells them, good for the suppliers and vendors to the company that builds them.

Giving a grant to the manufacturer may or may not benefit anyone else. Given that EMD has been losing money it's possible that they'd simply use it to get them $5 million closer to running in the black and it wouldn't really accomplish anything.
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