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Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?
- Thread starter PrivatePilot
- Start date
If you can't afford a Tesla...you look at other options.
And frankly, with that asshat Elon taking away options, increasing prices, and basically doing whatever he wants because he feels he can...I'd probably pass on an M3 right now. I love it, and would LOVE a 3 Performance...or even an Extended Range model...
Not sure I'd pull the trigger.
everybody already knows, no need to repeat.
Interesting....I googled Tesla Canada and it came up fourth...
www.cadillaccanada.ca
www.polestar.com
www.lexus.ca
www.tesla.com
www.cadillaccanada.ca
www.polestar.com
www.lexus.ca
www.tesla.com
Get used to it. This is the way the industry is moving towards.
Worked brilliantly for Apple.
Report claims Apple saved $6.5 billion by removing charger and EarPods from iPhone boxes
By one account, Apple saved over $6.5 billion by leaving the charging brick and the EarPods out of the iPhone box starting with iPhone 12.
www.phonearena.com
If you think about it, most ppl are moving on to their next tesla, and dont need another home charger. Reduces waste, weight, and more.
Its actually a very sound business plan.
I'm not going to agree with you @SunnY S on this one. That charger should be kept with the car and should not be removed.
Sure some people will install an L2 (or already have one). But I know 2 people with EVs that don't need the L2, and just use the L1 charger that comes with the car as it works for them. 'Why spend money unnecessarily when this works?' Sure it's a small sample size...but I think it's true.
Plus...when I go to the cottage, I take my L1. Anywhere I go I always have my L1 with me.
The whole 'it's not being used lots is a bullcrap marketing ploy to justify the nickle and diming.
Your comparison to a phone is laughable at best. Everyone has a spare charger for a car around...not so much for car chargers.
Sure some people will install an L2 (or already have one). But I know 2 people with EVs that don't need the L2, and just use the L1 charger that comes with the car as it works for them. 'Why spend money unnecessarily when this works?' Sure it's a small sample size...but I think it's true.
Plus...when I go to the cottage, I take my L1. Anywhere I go I always have my L1 with me.
The whole 'it's not being used lots is a bullcrap marketing ploy to justify the nickle and diming.
Your comparison to a phone is laughable at best. Everyone has a spare charger for a car around...not so much for car chargers.
Seems stupid but at the same time what's 200 dollars on a 100thousand dollar car.
Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
whats a $10 charger on a $1000 plus phone? billions according to apple.
IMO it’s bullcrap they remove it and don’t discount the car accordingly.
Unfortunately the customer gets boned up the bum and they take it lovingly from daddy Elon.
Unfortunately the customer gets boned up the bum and they take it lovingly from daddy Elon.
It's true ... er'one wants that hot new design on their model S.
also big issue is that the bundled charger only needs an adapter to be capable of L2 charging.
Now that they don't include it, they'll push you to install their L2 home charging station that is $630 vs a $55 nema adaptor
bundled charger is $370 on their website.
I can only imagine the spin he’s making. Easy to say how great it is when he’s not even prepared to open his wallet for one.
I concur with above poster.
What was I saying about home charging before.... many reasons but this is one of the first moves (and a couple of reasons)... Saves the manufacture money up front and saves them future battery issues.
As the batteries get bigger the smaller chargers cannot get enough charge into the battery to keep it topped up to a "safe" (for battery life) level. If someone does a long drive, even with today's "smaller" batteries and an L1, if that is all you have and you drive everyday the car is running around with a low charge (say 20 to 30% when topped up at home) and unless it sits for a very long time charging at home it never gets to a proper charge level unless they head out to a station (and many will not if they can get by with enough for the next day on L1) and sooner or later there will be battery lifespan issues.
BTW I know plenty of people that drive around with a 1/4 tanks on ICE and top up $5 or I guess now $10 at a time, just how some people roll. I also know quite a few early EV people with no L2 at home (still), just L1 and they will do the above for weeks/months at a time until they hit an Ikea etc. and that is going away (all are complaining today about how the number of KMs for a full charge is down for some reason, won't listen as to why--all manufactures fault...).
Start by removing L1 as included (saves money and saves batteries as batteries get bigger). Then just don't allow L1 at all and stop with providing L2..... Then batteries get even bigger so only 800v+ at stations as L2 is too slow. Many other reasons this was just two... Next gen battery tech, solid state Li, and maybe sodium-ion, etc. plays a part in this.
Like when Apple removed the floppy drive. The marketing reasons, it was obsolete tech and it saved a few $s a computer (both very true). The non-marketed actual reason at the time, the OS did not properly do preemptive multitasking, insert a slow floppy and everything came to a halt... insert marketing spin, remove the HW problem--easiest fix.
As the batteries get bigger the smaller chargers cannot get enough charge into the battery to keep it topped up to a "safe" (for battery life) level. If someone does a long drive, even with today's "smaller" batteries and an L1, if that is all you have and you drive everyday the car is running around with a low charge (say 20 to 30% when topped up at home) and unless it sits for a very long time charging at home it never gets to a proper charge level unless they head out to a station (and many will not if they can get by with enough for the next day on L1) and sooner or later there will be battery lifespan issues.
BTW I know plenty of people that drive around with a 1/4 tanks on ICE and top up $5 or I guess now $10 at a time, just how some people roll. I also know quite a few early EV people with no L2 at home (still), just L1 and they will do the above for weeks/months at a time until they hit an Ikea etc. and that is going away (all are complaining today about how the number of KMs for a full charge is down for some reason, won't listen as to why--all manufactures fault...).
Start by removing L1 as included (saves money and saves batteries as batteries get bigger). Then just don't allow L1 at all and stop with providing L2..... Then batteries get even bigger so only 800v+ at stations as L2 is too slow. Many other reasons this was just two... Next gen battery tech, solid state Li, and maybe sodium-ion, etc. plays a part in this.
Like when Apple removed the floppy drive. The marketing reasons, it was obsolete tech and it saved a few $s a computer (both very true). The non-marketed actual reason at the time, the OS did not properly do preemptive multitasking, insert a slow floppy and everything came to a halt... insert marketing spin, remove the HW problem--easiest fix.
I understand your point about L1. On a BEV, it is basically emergency use only as it takes a weekend to week from low charge. Your argument against L2 is backwards imo. Hitting a fast charger occasionally gives you the battery profile you were arguing against for L1. L2 at home is the best part of ev. Battery is always at optimal charge and for the vast majority of people the vast majority of the time, no issues filling the battery overnight.
Imo, L2 at home is here to stay. Assuming it was eliminated, we would have electricity issues as most rapid charger hits would be during peak hours instead of off-peak. Grid can easily accommodate 100% BEV fleet if charged off peak. If charger on-peak, the grid will have serious issues and require a big investment (possibly something like huge battery banks at charging stations so most charging power comes from off-peak grid).
As the batteries get bigger in capacity L2 becomes not enough like L1 "today". Manufactures are talking about needing 100 amps for home charging in the near future to get the required energy (watts--VA) into the larger battery, the core problem is the source voltage, in this case, is too low (120 now then later 240v is too low). The battery never gets a proper charge.
Next gen battery tech will also take the charge much faster but with a higher voltage required (ie not current Li-Ion tech). The package density is also predicted to be much more dense. That is how we get to 1000km plus real world per charge on giant SUVs and L2 will be today's L1.... Faster charge times mean charging stations (not home) with 800V+ will be the solution (for this technical case).
This is not the only reasons BTW, just part of the mix and bigger issues are at flight. I covered the others before in this thread, no need to repeat them once again.
Battery size doesn't matter. Source voltage doesn't matter. All that matters is vehicle efficiency and how far you drove since the last charge. Efficiency will continue to improve. L2 will always provide in the ballpark of 30 km of range for every hour of charge. If you have a place to charge and drive less than 300 km a day, no issues. Sure, if you want to charge quickly, voltage matters but if you have 8+ hours, you don't need to charge quickly.
agree with @GreyGhost. Efficiency is improving with every generation, even if they increase density 5 or 10x you only use so much energy in a day, L2 will always be able to put more energy than you use.
They've been teasing solid state and other denser batteries ever since Tesla started. (toyota was reported to have made gains and would release EVs with it)
I'm still waiting.
With most commutes (~50 kms), L1 charging would make that up overnight. (L2 can fully charge my M3 LR twice overnight)
Would a slower top up once in a while from 20% degrade your battery much more than supercharging?
They've been teasing solid state and other denser batteries ever since Tesla started. (toyota was reported to have made gains and would release EVs with it)
I'm still waiting.
With most commutes (~50 kms), L1 charging would make that up overnight. (L2 can fully charge my M3 LR twice overnight)
Would a slower top up once in a while from 20% degrade your battery much more than supercharging?
As noted, it is about a MUCH bigger picture than just this, this is just a couple of factors.
BTW, the EVs are getting bigger in NA (that is what people want--mainstream, not tinny weird looking aero), that means way LESS efficient (basic physics). The different electrical components are already running between 80% and 95% each so gains here will not even come close to offset the physics problems to range. Bigger better battery tech (NOT Li-Ion) gets the range (packaging/density) for those large EVs which will require more energy delivery to charge (so yes volts and amps, EE 101). Forget 30 km on these vehicles for an hour charge on L2 unless the current goes way up (double or more than today's). Back to batteries running around with 30% charge when 8 hours at the current amperage levels gets you 100 km.
Maybe the problem is we tend to think everyone will be driving around in a Model 3....the current EV crowd likes it but that is not what the mainstream want here. Mainstream wants a F150, Hummer, giant SUV with 1000+ km range. Want 60% of sales to be EVs in 2030...mainstream adoption is required. As for battery tech, today's Li-Ion is the lead-acid batteries of 2030+.
Factor in cost savings for the manufacturer (sort of touched here), regulatory, taxation, fleet vehicles, grid capacity, charging station ROI, politics ..... not even touching these in this post.
L2 can give 11.2 kW with a 60 amp circuit, easily possible in someone's 200 amp service panel. Overnight that's 130-ish kWh. Even a thirsty pickup truck EV will go a few hundred km on that, more than most people drive each day. L2 charging at home isn't going away. I won't buy an EV not capable of it.
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