Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle? | Page 334 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?

As noted, it is about a MUCH bigger picture than just this, this is just a couple of factors.

BTW, the EVs are getting bigger in NA (that is what people want--mainstream, not tinny weird looking aero), that means way LESS efficient (basic physics). The different electrical components are already running between 80% and 95% each so gains here will not even come close to offset the physics problems to range. Bigger better battery tech (NOT Li-Ion) gets the range (packaging/density) for those large EVs which will require more energy delivery to charge (so yes volts and amps, EE 101). Forget 30 km on these vehicles for an hour charge on L2 unless the current goes way up (double or more than today's). Back to batteries running around with 30% charge when 8 hours at the current amperage levels gets you 100 km.

Maybe the problem is we tend to think everyone will be driving around in a Model 3....the current EV crowd likes it but that is not what the mainstream want here. Mainstream wants a F150, Hummer, giant SUV with 1000+ km range. Want 60% of sales to be EVs in 2030...mainstream adoption is required. As for battery tech, today's Li-Ion is the lead-acid batteries of 2030+.

Factor in cost savings for the manufacturer (sort of touched here), regulatory, taxation, fleet vehicles, grid capacity, charging station ROI, politics ..... not even touching these in this post.
I don't know why you keep focusing on range. It barely matters. Km driven each day matters. Extra potential range does make it heavier which should reduce efficiency but it may also allow for extra regen (more cells to dump power in to) so it may not be a huge difference overall. If you come home with your Hummer and have driven 700 km that day and want to drive 700 km tomorrow, you are correct, level 2 is not a good fit. Very very very few people follow that usage profile.
 
Even if energy density is higher, that doesn't mean physical density (weight) will be. I still don't see them being that powerhungry unless we also run giant flatscreen TVs, microwave and a coffee machine in them.
the ridiculous hummer EV at 8000lbs has a 530km range on a 212kwh battery (half the efficiency of the Rivian). so your overnight 130 kwh from a L2 would cover more than 60%.

When range sells, efficiency AND battery density will be what sells your vehicles.
I definitely aint buying a 1000km truck when a 1500km truck exists.
 
I don't know why you keep focusing on range. It barely matters. Km driven each day matters. Extra potential range does make it heavier which should reduce efficiency but it may also allow for extra regen (more cells to dump power in to) so it may not be a huge difference overall. If you come home with your Hummer and have driven 700 km that day and want to drive 700 km tomorrow, you are correct, level 2 is not a good fit. Very very very few people follow that usage profile.
The issue is human behaviour mixed in with engineering. Not everyone is a top-up charging person (and most of the counter arguments here seem to assume they are) and less will be in the future if you cannot top-up over night. Sadly the future product needs to be engineered for bottom-up people (battery low cycling)....

We are also just touching on one aspect here, a technical problem, home charging has other very serious problems for full EV adoption not in this post but covered before, like it or not.

Higher storage capacity batteries need more energy to get from a zero/low to a full charge (we are talking two to four times the energy storage in the next five to ten years) now mix in people.... Today, L2 gets from a pretty low charge to a full charge in one night or maybe two with some driving to work in between. Not a big engineering problem for battery life today, as the majority of people top-up the batteries, even if that is not their nature (mostly taken care of by the technology). Really, the average EV gets a full charge today at L2 in ~8 hours (some longer, some shorter), same charge rate but four times the battery capacity in the very near future that is now 32 hours+ to fully charge from low on L2 as it is today (L1 like numbers for time).... Again, larger capacity batteries require more energy to charge from low to full (I hope no one argues against this). Larger vehicles require more energy to move and will absolutely take advantage of better tech to get higher density batteries with more energy storage. Longer range requires more energy storage....please read on, lets talk about people.

If all owners are "good" owners with these future batteries/vehicles and L2 charge (at today's L2 standards) each night to keep it "fully" topped up, NP, drive 200km plug in each night to cover yesterday's usage back to full charge, even at future battery densities, density does not matter in this corner case. Long drive with a good owner and four times the battery capacity, top-up at L3 (L4) charge station or leave it a couple of days (30+ hours) at home on L2 to get charged up, return to the drive and top-up cycle. But that is not human nature for everyone so a good portion will let it get down low to very low (long drive, more likely just lazy and did not plug it in) and will bottom up each night and the new higher density batteries will spend most of its life at low charge levels, might even skip nights as there is enough already for the next day and... had to pee when they got home.... This low cycling MUST be included in the future engineering of the vehicle or the behaviour modified, it creates big cost problems! Happening today with L1. Not a problem with L2 today as it can charge the battery in ~8 hours.

Their mindset, L2 gets me enough charge for back and forth to work the next day so no worries, just do that. Bottom-up owner charges low charge bigger battery L2 each night, might skip some (again future not today's EVs) and gets the battery to enough charge for back and forth to work the next day but the battery stays/cycles at lower charge levels for extended periods of time which then causes the manufacturer problems with battery life ($$$$s). As everyone keeps saying here, L2 gets them back and forth to work, YES, absolutely, no argument here, even in the future, but that is the one of the problems when it becomes not enough to get the battery from low to a proper charge before the next drive but enough to do just what you need and the users just keep putting just enough in to cover their needs the next day. Just enough to cover the next day's needs is sadly human nature for many, maybe most people. L2 works perfectly today for these people as it gets us from 0 to full in ~one night solving a lot of the engineering problem they may cause, but I am not talking about today. The cost to engineer the future vehicles needs to consider all this. Just like people driving around with their ICE at near empty to 1/4 tank $5 or $10 at a time.

How do we solve future low cycling, bottom-uppers, lots of possible solutions, some listed here: 100 amp++ home charging to get more energy in less time to get back to an ~overnight full charge-that is a problem for the grid and it will push many homes to >200 amp services (and the vehicle manufactures are already talking about requiring this soon BTW), larger heavier charging cables and wiring, oops multiple EVs needing a 100 amp charge in the home....etc. Next possible, SW that will interfere to protect the battery and make sure the bottom-up owner gets it fully charged based on a cycle or other measure (SW to change user behaviour), lots of problems here (SW says vehicle won't drive today as you need to get it to 80% plus because you have been 30% or less for three weeks, maybe L2 not allowed if below 30% charge, IDK except mostly bad for users....). Maybe tracking to tell the owner that battery warranty will be cancelled based on how they are low cycling/charging as L2 is not getting them to full charge (likely legal issues). Extra engineering costs to design this all in, battery over capacity or much higher quality to consider shorter lifespan in this case (which can create a feedback loop on the issue BTW and $$$$s). Or... government mandates to make the vehicles use less energy (CAFEv2 for EVs) and therefore less storage capacity requirements, less local grid load.....

OR take the Apple/MAC approach and remove the floppy drive instead of fixing the OS but blame it on progress, need to fast charge at the station not at home, it is the future. Home charging is no longer needed as there are enough for pay charging stations. Bang, just saved a bunch of $$$s per car eliminating L2! More money for manufactures and multiple lobbyist groups are very happy.

But again all this human nature and physics is not the only problem with home charging when it comes to full EV adoption.
 
You are giving manufacturers a lot more credit to think ahead.
None of the big manufacturers have even successfully launched one good BEV until now (Kia EV6/Ioniq 5). They aren't looking that far ahead to plan L1 chargers being obsolete.

Also, not sure why they'd care if you as a customer don't do your due diligence in battery care. Calculate the worst battery degradation possible and set your warranty limits accordingly. Look at how Mercedes/JLR build their cars for warranty and lease periods. I don't see phone manufacturers caring if people forget to charge their phones.

You have also clearly never owned an EV. Forgetting to fill up gas, or having low phone battery are easy to deal with.
It will become ingrained in people to charge or plug in routinely once you've had to stop unexpectedly to charge for 15-20 mins once or twice.

And again, I don't see how you think vehicles will somehow become significantly less efficient than an 8000lb building (Hummer EV). There's a reason most cars are turbocharged today, and even EVs have MPGe on window stickers. L2 right now can still fill that thing up to a healthy amount from empty in just one night (~300kms).

I agree with you on the charging issue, this is true for all condo or garage/driveway less home owners. Many reasons they could push out home charging but IMO this is extremely far in the future I still would never recommend a BEV to anyone without L2 home charging unless charging from 10-80% <15mins

Lastly, since you seem to have researched this heavily. Does any of the new battery tech not degrade with low cycling?
Serious question, Tesla's new LFP batteries can routinely charge to 100% without degradation so just wondering why wouldn't we figure out a way to prevent the same with charge states.
 
As I understand it Chevy doesn't let the battery drain to an actual 0% range, even though is says it, and it won't charge to 100% range in order to extend battery life.

Not sure how other manufacturers do it. But keeping the range from 10% - 80/90% should allow you extended battery life as full charge to full discharge is what degrades the battery most (in my understanding).
 
Do all EV charge through the same system? I was kind of thinking we were at the beta vs VHS point again. Is that correct?
 
@killvino many good points....

The L1 today is like the floppy disk back in the day. Once one drops it successfully expect the rest to shortly afterwards to save money. Manufactures are constantly looking at how to cut costs.

For battery care, there is a lot of "math" that goes into these types of things and engineering. Pretty much most major system in all cars today have a predicted lifespan and calcs on warranty costs and failure rates. Some makes do this better than others. Batteries will be no different in this respect and the warranty period is much longer than a phone in this case. Also expect other systems to be down engineered as time goes on and they get a better feel for the failure rates. Lots of over engineering in EVs today that is not sustainable at lower price points. For phones they want the batteries to have a short lifespan, so you get a new phone every few years. Cars that are junk in three years is not a great model for anyone!

Current EV owners still have lots of range anxiety, totally true, but I also no many that low cycle as it is their only option. These are the people today doing just L1 and the odd charging station without a 240v outlet at home to do L2. It is also new for people and behaviour changes as time goes on. Larger batteries make this worse as keeping it say 1/4 charged will cover way more than what they need day to day. What we know as an absolute, the majority of humans do a very poor job or planning beyond tomorrow....

The Hummer as an example does up-to 350 miles on a full charge today (560 km), but hardly real world as we know. That takes a "typical" 8 hours to L2 today according to GM. Move that out to 1000 km real world range and you are looking at 2 to maybe 3 times the battery storage (totally on the near term battery horizon). In that example 16 to 24 hours on L2 for full charge. No change in efficiency of the vehicle size/weight/aero.... My points about efficiency are about comparing the typical EV car today (like a Model 3) and large SUVs/trucks (like the Hummer) that people want. Most EVers quote charging times and range from the cars of today.

A significant portion of the urban population own ICE vehicles today and will never have home charging do to street parking, high rise rental etc. Street charging is not happening anytime soon, a pole has a 30 year lifespan. Poles being replaced today don't have EV ports.... what does that say! The ROI for pay charging is awful because EV users today mostly home charge so economics plays a big part here. How do we get from here to there.

New battery tech may do perfectly well (or can be designed to) being low cycled. That we do not know and can be a game changer here.
 
@killvino many good points....

The L1 today is like the floppy disk back in the day. Once one drops it successfully expect the rest to shortly afterwards to save money. Manufactures are constantly looking at how to cut costs.

For battery care, there is a lot of "math" that goes into these types of things and engineering. Pretty much most major system in all cars today have a predicted lifespan and calcs on warranty costs and failure rates. Some makes do this better than others. Batteries will be no different in this respect and the warranty period is much longer than a phone in this case. Also expect other systems to be down engineered as time goes on and they get a better feel for the failure rates. Lots of over engineering in EVs today that is not sustainable at lower price points. For phones they want the batteries to have a short lifespan, so you get a new phone every few years. Cars that are junk in three years is not a great model for anyone!

Current EV owners still have lots of range anxiety, totally true, but I also no many that low cycle as it is their only option. These are the people today doing just L1 and the odd charging station without a 240v outlet at home to do L2. It is also new for people and behaviour changes as time goes on. Larger batteries make this worse as keeping it say 1/4 charged will cover way more than what they need day to day. What we know as an absolute, the majority of humans do a very poor job or planning beyond tomorrow....

The Hummer as an example does up-to 350 miles on a full charge today (560 km), but hardly real world as we know. That takes a "typical" 8 hours to L2 today according to GM. Move that out to 1000 km real world range and you are looking at 2 to maybe 3 times the battery storage (totally on the near term battery horizon). In that example 16 to 24 hours on L2 for full charge. No change in efficiency of the vehicle size/weight/aero.... My points about efficiency are about comparing the typical EV car today (like a Model 3) and large SUVs/trucks (like the Hummer) that people want. Most EVers quote charging times and range from the cars of today.

A significant portion of the urban population own ICE vehicles today and will never have home charging do to street parking, high rise rental etc. Street charging is not happening anytime soon, a pole has a 30 year lifespan. Poles being replaced today don't have EV ports.... what does that say! The ROI for pay charging is awful because EV users today mostly home charge so economics plays a big part here. How do we get from here to there.

New battery tech may do perfectly well (or can be designed to) being low cycled. That we do not know and can be a game changer here.
Our ev gets plugged in anytime it is in the driveway and hasn't been an issue battery size won't change that. Software limited discharge can take care of the battery.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
 
@killvino many good points....

The L1 today is like the floppy disk back in the day. Once one drops it successfully expect the rest to shortly afterwards to save money. Manufactures are constantly looking at how to cut costs.

For battery care, there is a lot of "math" that goes into these types of things and engineering. Pretty much most major system in all cars today have a predicted lifespan and calcs on warranty costs and failure rates. Some makes do this better than others. Batteries will be no different in this respect and the warranty period is much longer than a phone in this case. Also expect other systems to be down engineered as time goes on and they get a better feel for the failure rates. Lots of over engineering in EVs today that is not sustainable at lower price points. For phones they want the batteries to have a short lifespan, so you get a new phone every few years. Cars that are junk in three years is not a great model for anyone!

Current EV owners still have lots of range anxiety, totally true, but I also no many that low cycle as it is their only option. These are the people today doing just L1 and the odd charging station without a 240v outlet at home to do L2. It is also new for people and behaviour changes as time goes on. Larger batteries make this worse as keeping it say 1/4 charged will cover way more than what they need day to day. What we know as an absolute, the majority of humans do a very poor job or planning beyond tomorrow....

The Hummer as an example does up-to 350 miles on a full charge today (560 km), but hardly real world as we know. That takes a "typical" 8 hours to L2 today according to GM. Move that out to 1000 km real world range and you are looking at 2 to maybe 3 times the battery storage (totally on the near term battery horizon). In that example 16 to 24 hours on L2 for full charge. No change in efficiency of the vehicle size/weight/aero.... My points about efficiency are about comparing the typical EV car today (like a Model 3) and large SUVs/trucks (like the Hummer) that people want. Most EVers quote charging times and range from the cars of today.

A significant portion of the urban population own ICE vehicles today and will never have home charging do to street parking, high rise rental etc. Street charging is not happening anytime soon, a pole has a 30 year lifespan. Poles being replaced today don't have EV ports.... what does that say! The ROI for pay charging is awful because EV users today mostly home charge so economics plays a big part here. How do we get from here to there.

New battery tech may do perfectly well (or can be designed to) being low cycled. That we do not know and can be a game changer here.
Toronto Hydro is ridiculously cheap when they update their infrastructure! I had the pleasure of dealing with them recently....FML...glad I don't have to deal with it daily.

They're own hydro infrastructure isn't up to code. 'If the lights are on, it's still good'.
 
The Hummer as an example does up-to 350 miles on a full charge today (560 km), but hardly real world as we know. That takes a "typical" 8 hours to L2 today according to GM. Move that out to 1000 km real world range and you are looking at 2 to maybe 3 times the battery storage (totally on the near term battery horizon). In that example 16 to 24 hours on L2 for full charge. No change in efficiency of the vehicle size/weight/aero.... My points about efficiency are about comparing the typical EV car today (like a Model 3) and large SUVs/trucks (like the Hummer) that people want. Most EVers quote charging times and range from the cars of today.
The hummer is a 1000hp 9000 lb cube and you are arguing that the future they will be worse? Who is driving 1000 km every day? Who would pick a 1000 hp 9000 lb cube to do that? I am sticking with most people most of the time will be fine with L2 if they have access to charging at home. For those that dont have access to charging at home, things are very different and you may be right and those people may almost never use an L1 or L2 charger. Personally, if I could not charge at home, I would delay BEV purchase as long as possible to allow charging infrastructure to improve.
 
The hummer is a 1000hp 9000 lb cube and you are arguing that the future they will be worse? Who is driving 1000 km every day? Who would pick a 1000 hp 9000 lb cube to do that? I am sticking with most people most of the time will be fine with L2 if they have access to charging at home. For those that dont have access to charging at home, things are very different and you may be right and those people may almost never use an L1 or L2 charger. Personally, if I could not charge at home, I would delay BEV purchase as long as possible to allow charging infrastructure to improve.
AGAIN!!!! It is not about driving 1000 km a day.

It is about how long the battery takes to charge from a low to full charge. How charge level impacts battery life. How most humans operate. Batteries are coming out with two to four times the capacity as today and will take two to fours times as long to charge from LOW charge to full when it gets low on L2. BTW this could also be a future game changer 2000km+ capable car, not just hummers, whatever, for all it matters.

People that drive around with a 1/4 tank today and add $5 or $10 at a time. The fact the tank holds enough gas to go 1000 km does not mean there is ever enough gas to go 1000 km OR that they are ever going 1000 km. We don't get this today in EVs as an overnight on L2 fills the "tank" what I am talking about is when it no longer can. If L2 takes 24 or 32 hours to charge (from low) and the car has a long range the batteries will cycle low for many drivers, why, human nature and no over night charging fix.

The vehicle and battery needs to be engineered to deal with both cases (and others of course). Removing L2 solves it (and a very huge number of economic and political problems), plus less cost for the manufacturer, almost everyone making the big money decisions wins...... this is all just one point.

Or 100 amp++ home charging, or SW that limits use.... also can fix it but create new problems.

Just because EV owners today charge every night like good boys and girls and even if they do not L2 tops it up 100% in one sleep.... does not mean a significant portion of the population that cannot look past tomorrow will do the same. Does it totally kill home charging, lots of bigger issues will do that--just a nail. BUT we see this very problem with L1 only people today.

AGAIN, AGAIN!!!! It is not about driving 1000 km a day.
 
AGAIN!!!! It is not about driving 1000 km a day.

It is about how long the battery takes to charge from a low to full charge. How charge level impacts battery life. How most humans operate. Batteries are coming out with two to four times the capacity as today and will take two to fours times as long to charge from LOW charge to full when it gets low on L2. BTW this could also be a future game changer 2000km+ capable car, not just hummers, whatever, for all it matters.

People that drive around with a 1/4 tank today and add $5 or $10 at a time. The fact the tank holds enough gas to go 1000 km does not mean there is ever enough gas to go 1000 km OR that they are ever going 1000 km. We don't get this today in EVs as an overnight on L2 fills the "tank" what I am talking about is when it no longer can. If L2 takes 24 or 32 hours to charge (from low) and the car has a long range the batteries will cycle low for many drivers, why, human nature and no over night charging fix.

The vehicle and battery needs to be engineered to deal with both cases (and others of course). Removing L2 solves it (and a very huge number of economic and political problems), plus less cost for the manufacturer, almost everyone making the big money decisions wins...... this is all just one point.

Or 100 amp++ home charging, or SW that limits use.... also can fix it but create new problems.

Just because EV owners today charge every night like good boys and girls and even if they do not L2 tops it up 100% in one sleep.... does not mean a significant portion of the population that cannot look past tomorrow will do the same. Does it totally kill home charging, lots of bigger issues will do that--just a nail. BUT we see this very problem with L1 only people today.

AGAIN, AGAIN!!!! It is not about driving 1000 km a day.
Well, if your $5 analogy works, they charge for a couple hours and leave. L2 still works. Car protects the battery with software already (0% indicated is ~20% real). I still see zero issue with battery size and L2 charging.
 
@killvino many good points....

The L1 today is like the floppy disk back in the day. Once one drops it successfully expect the rest to shortly afterwards to save money. Manufactures are constantly looking at how to cut costs.
I now get your floppy disc analogy and agree with you there, if manufacturers can get away with not supplying something, they won't. Look at spare tires. I just don't agree they are doing it because of the way in the future possibility of ineffective L1/L2 home charging
For battery care, there is a lot of "math" that goes into these types of things and engineering. Pretty much most major system in all cars today have a predicted lifespan and calcs on warranty costs and failure rates. Some makes do this better than others. Batteries will be no different in this respect and the warranty period is much longer than a phone in this No change in efficiency of the vehicle size/weight/aero.... My points about efficiency are about comparing the typical EV car today (like a Model 3) and large SUVs/trucks (like the Hummer) that people want. Most EVers quote charging times and range from the cars of today.
Not sure who you polled but no one wants the Hummer and it's an outlier, like the Ram TRX. The few electric Large SUVs out currently are all at least twice as efficient as the beast. Majority of everyday vehicles won't be your megasized SUV/truck but CUVs or midsize SUVs. Think of all the CRVs/RAV4s, X3, Q5s. Affordability is always going to be key and charging outside for something that is less efficient does not make sense at all to the everyday consumer. 1000km or not.

I see what you are saying about people not charging when you have a lot of range and charging is faster. 1000km range, people only plug it in once a week or so, keeping the battery in the low range. possibly degrading battery. but that's such a minor possibility that has no bearing on including or not including L2 charging currently.

So many other factors that can make the point moot: new battery tech that wont degrade at lower point, software to prevent degrading battery states, vehicle or app reminders, even just manufacturers not giving an F because degraded batteries means you buy a new car.
 
Hummer EV is not representative of the mass market going forward. Granted, Silverado EV is same BT1XX platform but it won't be as wide or as heavy and the aero is better. Ford F150 Lightning is just coming out now but it's already known that next gen will be designed as an EV. The big production numbers are planned for the compact and midsize SUV segment, e.g. Equinox. Battery sizes are likely to stay about where they are in each vehicle segment - the thinking is that as charging network builds out, range anxiety will fade away. No one is seriously designing to accommodate the "OMG I can't tow this 10000 lb trailer 800 km and recharge in 5 minutes" crowd ... they will be dragged in kicking and screaming, and everyone knows that.
 
Oh I meant to ask...any of the Volt owners here swap out tires for non-LRR? Wondering what type of hit on EV range I can expect if I go to something more grippier / sportier?

The LRR are good, but looking at other options as my tires look to be on their last season.
 
Oh I meant to ask...any of the Volt owners here swap out tires for non-LRR? Wondering what type of hit on EV range I can expect if I go to something more grippier / sportier?

The LRR are good, but looking at other options as my tires look to be on their last season.
Pay attention to load ratings if you are going with conventional tires. The volt is probably lighter than a BEV but it's not hard to exceed load ratings of conventional car tires. They were designed for flex and comfort not carrying around thousands of pounds of batteries.
 
Oh I meant to ask...any of the Volt owners here swap out tires for non-LRR? Wondering what type of hit on EV range I can expect if I go to something more grippier / sportier?

The LRR are good, but looking at other options as my tires look to be on their last season.
Don’t listen to @GreyGhost, he’s just jelly.

Put some race slicks on that bad boy, I support you.
 

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