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Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?
- Thread starter PrivatePilot
- Start date
It depends. Some charge by the minute, some charge by the kilowatt.
The ones that charge by the minute penalize those who charge slower than others, but incentivize getting your charge and getting the heck out of the way for someone else to plug in as even if you're not charging, you're paying. Most fast charge stations are by the minute regardless of how fast your car can charge - a Bolt that tops out at 50kw pays the same as a Mach-E that charges at 4-6 times the same rate. But it avoids people just plugging in and going shopping or whatever for an hour while others sit waiting for the charger.
The ones that charge by the kilowatt are the fairest as you only pay for what you actually consume, but they can get clogged up with people charging above 80%, which on a "fast" charger is actually quite slow as the charge rate slows down over 80%. But there's little incentive to GTFO at that point....or move to a slower L2 charger for the 80-100% top off. These tend to get clogged up with jerks who don't care how long they're tying up the charger.
Most slower (level 2) chargers are flat rate by the hour, but there's usually a lot more of them available at a larger station, or often at least 2 at a smaller station.
The ones that charge by the minute penalize those who charge slower than others, but incentivize getting your charge and getting the heck out of the way for someone else to plug in as even if you're not charging, you're paying. Most fast charge stations are by the minute regardless of how fast your car can charge - a Bolt that tops out at 50kw pays the same as a Mach-E that charges at 4-6 times the same rate. But it avoids people just plugging in and going shopping or whatever for an hour while others sit waiting for the charger.
The ones that charge by the kilowatt are the fairest as you only pay for what you actually consume, but they can get clogged up with people charging above 80%, which on a "fast" charger is actually quite slow as the charge rate slows down over 80%. But there's little incentive to GTFO at that point....or move to a slower L2 charger for the 80-100% top off. These tend to get clogged up with jerks who don't care how long they're tying up the charger.
Most slower (level 2) chargers are flat rate by the hour, but there's usually a lot more of them available at a larger station, or often at least 2 at a smaller station.
On the topic of actual cost...I find it to typically be still less than gas. Here's one of our charging sessions from January in my wife's Ioniq.
18kw in that car in January would take us about 100km or so. So, when compared against the price of gas, 6L/100km equivalent is still pretty decent.
In the summer that same 18kw would probably take us 130-140km, so the math changes.
You do pay a premium for public charging. At home those figures are waaaay less.
18kw in that car in January would take us about 100km or so. So, when compared against the price of gas, 6L/100km equivalent is still pretty decent.
In the summer that same 18kw would probably take us 130-140km, so the math changes.
You do pay a premium for public charging. At home those figures are waaaay less.
The intent is that you charge the car overnight at home, in which case, the above charge would cost perhaps $2, and then you only use the DC fast-chargers on road trips in which case you are paying for the convenience. The charge at home will be enough for by far the most people to get through their day and then some.
In my own usage patterns, with a hypothetical Chevrolet Bolt, I would only have to use fast-chargers for the occasional Windsor or Ottawa trip, and that's maybe once a month.
The Bolt is still not out of the running, by the way, slow charging (by today's standards) and all. The ID4 is too big (doesn't fit in the driveway with what else has to be in it). The Mach E is too big. F150 theoretically could replace both vehicles but then I'd need a trailer. VW ID3 is the right size but not available here. Hyundai Kona is the right size. VW ID Buzz (or whatever they end up calling it 2 years from now when it eventually shows up) could replace both vehicles and not need a trailer, but I'm concerned that they'll only sell it here in a stupidly-expensive high-end version.
In my own usage patterns, with a hypothetical Chevrolet Bolt, I would only have to use fast-chargers for the occasional Windsor or Ottawa trip, and that's maybe once a month.
The Bolt is still not out of the running, by the way, slow charging (by today's standards) and all. The ID4 is too big (doesn't fit in the driveway with what else has to be in it). The Mach E is too big. F150 theoretically could replace both vehicles but then I'd need a trailer. VW ID3 is the right size but not available here. Hyundai Kona is the right size. VW ID Buzz (or whatever they end up calling it 2 years from now when it eventually shows up) could replace both vehicles and not need a trailer, but I'm concerned that they'll only sell it here in a stupidly-expensive high-end version.
I'm liking this new F150. If I needed, and could afford it, I'd have one of those in my driveway. With our usage patterns, it would literally meet 99.9% of our needs.
I read somewhere that the base level trim is around 80k out the door CAD?
EDIT: Yup...around there. 68k base.
I read somewhere that the base level trim is around 80k out the door CAD?
EDIT: Yup...around there. 68k base.
D
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Please don't trade your EV in for a Truck
Please don't trade your EV in for a Truck
You do bring up an interesting point. Presumably the Lightning is a lot heavier and less aerodynamic than an EV car. Therefore it requires a lot more kwh's per 100 km. Above a certain daily distance, you may not have enough time once you get home for the level 2 charger to refill the truck before the next morning and that distance will be much much less than a car EV. It would be interesting to see what those distances are (we could work out the car now but the truck would have some big assumptions). If you have to stop for a fast charge hit a few times a week to keep the truck charged, that will add significantly to cost of ownership and beat the batteries up.
Exactly. But this is lost on many.
Just a few days ago in one discussion I saw there was a guy ranting about how inconvenient it would be to have to stop “every day for 60 minutes to charge!!”
Completely missing the fact the truck would probably even go 3-5 (or more) days without needing to charge at all for most people’s driving patterns (under 50km a day) and the reality of driveway charging at home for cheap. Hell, even my wife’s Ioniq which isn’t being driven much right now with its comparatively measly 230km summer range is only getting charged maybe 2-3 times a month now until my wife returns to working in office
It’s been surely well showing now that if EV batteries are kept in their comfortable 20%-80/90% window the number of cycles doesn’t mean as much as the depth of discharges.
This is why the first gen Volts had a real world hidden buffer that really only uses 70% of the batteries actual capacity. It’s worked well as evidenced by my 2011 still on its original battery with 170,000km on it, and my wife’s that was north of 200,000km when we sold it.
As automakers bite into those buffers more and more in the search for increased range it may have an effect, but given how much technology has improved even that’s not as big a deal as it would have once been.
And reality is despite the continued perception that buyers need 500-800km of range on a pickup, my bets are most of these end up living the grocery getter lifestyle where they go <75km a day and up to the cottage or camper a few times a month.
The F150 evidently comes with an 11.2 kWh onboard charger, which would require a dedicated circuit to be installed. At 240V that's 47 amps, so this would need its own circuit rated 60 amps. We don't know the battery capacity but I'm guessing 160 kWh for the long-range version based upon Ford's stated recharging times. Most people aren't going to be coming home with an empty battery but that's still 15 hours for a charge if you do.
If the range is 640 km unloaded (based on those initial estimates and knowing that the EPA numbers are conservative and based on carrying 1000 lbs) that's 4 km / kWh or 25 kWh/100 km ... about 50% more electrical consumption than a Bolt ... sounds optimistic. If it's 480 km (in the vicinity of the claimed EPA number for the long-range) that's 3 km/kWh or 33 kWh / 100 km ... about double that of a Bolt.
For someone who drives 200 km per day, this will use 66 kWh per day (and a Bolt would use 33 kWh per day).
If you're stuck with a 30 amp charging circuit (me, unless I tear out and rework a bunch of drywall) and can only do overnight charging at 5 kW, the Bolt needs to be plugged in for 6 or 7 hours ... not a problem for most people. The F150 would need to be plugged in for 13 or 14 hours, which is starting to get marginal.
Basically, for a vehicle this big, if you drive that much, you would need that hard-wired 11.2 kW charger with its own dedicated 60 amp circuit (and a 200 amp panel in your house). Or a smaller vehicle ...
For people who don't drive that much (most people), or if you have a 40 amp circuit (and can do overnight charging at 6.6 kW), it's still viable.
Aerodynamics will play a huge role in the actual range. It is a brick, at highway speeds does the extra 1000 lbs (really four extra medium guys these days) make that much of a difference? Whenever I have rented a gas pick-up I never really see much of a gas mileage delta on the highway loaded at similar weight vs empty. Same four guys and some luggage in my car, same thing really not much difference in mileage on the highway. Stop and go city driving there is a big difference (and will be). So is Ford just playing a game, expecting early reviews to think it is all linear.... well it is longer range but we had 1000lbs in it.... My guess BTW why the Tesla truck looks so stupid, it is partially for aero reasons.
In my hood there are quite a few EVs (almost all Tesla S and 3). In almost all cases they have a second vehicle that is some huge soccer mom fashion truck or SUV. They pat themselves on the back for the EV and drive the ginormous vehicle more than half the time (really EV is second). I have heard all the excuses, we need the space (99.9% of the time it has one or two people and nothing else in it), soccer mom wants to sit up high (to feel safe), they need to tow some small trailer once a year, etc.... What Ford has done here is hopefully remove/address all those excuses...
In my hood there are quite a few EVs (almost all Tesla S and 3). In almost all cases they have a second vehicle that is some huge soccer mom fashion truck or SUV. They pat themselves on the back for the EV and drive the ginormous vehicle more than half the time (really EV is second). I have heard all the excuses, we need the space (99.9% of the time it has one or two people and nothing else in it), soccer mom wants to sit up high (to feel safe), they need to tow some small trailer once a year, etc.... What Ford has done here is hopefully remove/address all those excuses...
My drive to Sudbury is to visit a plant for work and head back home in the same day.
Did not know they had a fast-charger but to add even an hour to 8hr just driving plus my work day is no bueno at the moment for me.
Current F150 makes it there and back with a full tank and an extra 2-3 days of commuting to regular work.
Again its a very niche scenario, most people don't have this and would have the luxury of waiting to charge and if I didn't have this roadblock I would be all over it. I still have a deposit for the Tesla Cybertruck.
Also not sure about the range when driving at higher speeds, I know from experience the Teslas you take a big hit above 110. I also average higher than that for most of the trip.
Side note: I literally just got detoured yesterday coming back at hwy 522. Hwy 69 was closed. added about an hour and a half and 70kms to the drive unexpectedly. Never taken it and there was no cell signal most of the way.
That was fun.
Does plant have charging spots? Eight hours on level two charger is a lot of range. I suspect it has block heater plugs but I'm not sure plugging a pure EV into a level 1 charger is worth the effort.
L1 on a pure EV is viable if you’re not in a rush.
When we were at an Airb&b last fall we drove the Ioniq. Arrived with about 10% battery and plugged in with the L1. It was at 98% when we left a few days later lol.
But…got the job done.
When we were at an Airb&b last fall we drove the Ioniq. Arrived with about 10% battery and plugged in with the L1. It was at 98% when we left a few days later lol.
But…got the job done.
I agree if you are talking days. If you are in a high-draw EV (eg. Lighting), plugging it into L1 for your eight hour shift gets you ~30 km of range. Basically pissing in the wind.
haha, they barely have enough parking.
level 1 charger definitely wouldn't be enough. even level two for 8 hours, I don't think would charge enough to make it back.
I am only up there for a 3-4 hours, not doing 16+hr days on salary.
Would be fine for majority of people for home charging at that rate. Most commute is around there or a tad more, but at home you would get more than 8 hours.
I hear you on the long one-day road trips. The one I have from time to time, is Windsor and back in one day. You'd think the 401 would be plastered in fast-charge stations, and perhaps it will be, one day. But the last PetroCan 350kW fast-charger is in Dorchester. There's a few scattered around Windsor, but none in convenient locations for where I have to typically go. Needs 400 km of real-world range in order to make it from the Dorchester fast-charger to Windsor and back to Dorchester (km 199).
There is a sorta-fast charger in Tilbury (km 64 or thereabouts), which is a good location for the recharging-on-a-road-trip point of view, but it's in a Canadian Tire parking lot with nothing else within walking distance - so if you use that one, unless you happen to need a shopping trip to Canadian Tire, you're sitting in the car while it's charging, twiddling your thumbs.
This situation will improve over time.
For the Sudbury situation, you are doing an 800 km road trip, you're not fast-charging the whole thing. You're starting out full, going 250 km to Parry Sound (150 km range left or thereabouts), adding 150 km of range there in 20 minutes while having a coffee, getting to Sudbury with 150 km range left, adding another 150 km of range in 20 minutes while having lunch in a strategically-chosen spot (for having a fast-charger), stopping again in Parry Sound (150 km range left) and adding 150 km of range in 20 minutes while having a coffee again, and then driving 250 km home with 50 km range to spare ... or something like that. If you strategically choose your bathroom and coffee and lunch breaks to coincide with fast-chargers, it shouldn't really add much to the trip.
... unless there's a nuisance situation like in Tilbury where the only spot with a fast-charger that's good for the charging-location point of view, has nothing around for you to do while the car is charging.
... but this situation is going to improve.
There is a sorta-fast charger in Tilbury (km 64 or thereabouts), which is a good location for the recharging-on-a-road-trip point of view, but it's in a Canadian Tire parking lot with nothing else within walking distance - so if you use that one, unless you happen to need a shopping trip to Canadian Tire, you're sitting in the car while it's charging, twiddling your thumbs.
This situation will improve over time.
For the Sudbury situation, you are doing an 800 km road trip, you're not fast-charging the whole thing. You're starting out full, going 250 km to Parry Sound (150 km range left or thereabouts), adding 150 km of range there in 20 minutes while having a coffee, getting to Sudbury with 150 km range left, adding another 150 km of range in 20 minutes while having lunch in a strategically-chosen spot (for having a fast-charger), stopping again in Parry Sound (150 km range left) and adding 150 km of range in 20 minutes while having a coffee again, and then driving 250 km home with 50 km range to spare ... or something like that. If you strategically choose your bathroom and coffee and lunch breaks to coincide with fast-chargers, it shouldn't really add much to the trip.
... unless there's a nuisance situation like in Tilbury where the only spot with a fast-charger that's good for the charging-location point of view, has nothing around for you to do while the car is charging.
... but this situation is going to improve.
Let's also keep in mind that not very many years ago (like perhaps 2 or 3), this would have been a discussion about whether it was possible/practical to do such a trip at all, as opposed to what's the most convenient way to do it. There are still EV dead-spots or no-go zones ... but they're getting smaller.
There's a good question ... For now, most of these charging locations just have two spots. (Plugshare says, individually, how many each spot has.)
In the times when I happened to see these charging stations, most of the time, no one is using them. Sometimes one.
Mass EV adoption will require an expansion ... no question of that.
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