Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?

[shanekingsley]

Dealership I bought my car from knew a great deal about the Volt and the sales rep had a really good understanding of it and how it worked.
The test drive I had at the dealership was filled with much more information than I got out of any test drive at the EV Discovery Centre the week prior.
I was going to buy the car anyways, but the dealership sales rep made the experience that much better.

 

[Lunatic]

My sales guy and the sales manager are definitely not as knowledgeable as they should be, but they were also not down on EV's at all. They never once tried to steer me away from either the Bolt or the Volt and were very proud of the EV sales they had been making as well as the dealership adding extra charging stations. At least they were until Ford crapped all over the incentive program...

 

[Mad Mike]

Saw this happen in 2009 after the big crash when oil went from $150/barrel to $35 (or something like that) inside a short period of time. Gas was cheap again, and in the years that followed big pickup trucks were flying off the dealers lots...once things started to get back on track.

And then...it wasn't cheap anymore...and up until maybe 6 months ago, does everyone remember $1.40/L?

Will it last? Yeah, doubtful. But people forget quickly - I'm sure dealers are once again doing brisk sales of gas pigs, but there will be much crying when gas spikes again.

Sales are down -- of course they are. When new technologies hit the market, a segment of buyers will jump in to be different, supportive or for the cache of owning. These are called 'early adopters' and they are always willing to pay a premium and overlook the economic disadvantages. Industry's challenge is to use these high premiums to offset higher initial R&D and build cost AND to drive manufacturing efficiencies by increasing production volumes and introducing lower cost models.

At some point you run out of early adopters -- if you haven't refined your product with features and pricing for a mass market, you miss the boat.

 

[ddusseld]

This. Totally this.

It has very little to do with all the reasons the EV/alternate fuel vehicle apologists make. To the average car owner, I'm one, convenience reigns supreme. Gas cars are simple. Drive a long time, when near empty fill up in a few minutes pretty much anywhere. Why would I ever want to become an early adopter of an EV or alternate fuel vehicle? I'll wait until one of the alternative energies provides the same convenience and then think about buying. Don't care whether it is electric/hydrogen or some yet undiscovered technology. I just require simplicity...

Asking questions isn’t money changing hands and that’s what ultimately matters. People aren’t going into dealerships looking to buy EV’s. I know this from being in the business. Look at sales numbers, still under 2% in North America. Closer to 1% of all new vehicles sold if you take Tesla out of the picture.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Gas cars are simple. Drive a long time, when near empty fill up in a few minutes pretty much anywhere. Why would I ever want to become an early adopter of an EV or alternate fuel vehicle?

When gas is back up to $1.30L and your car costs you $9-$10 so for every 100KM you drive, if you had an option that went the same distance for about $1 instead, would that change your mind?

And instead of needing an oil change and other drivetrain related maintenance every few months, the maintenance schedule consisted solely of “Rotate tires every 12 months”, would that also interest you?

Because those are very real benefits of EV’s.

That was the big driver for me. I went from spending $80 a week on gas in my old car to spending a few dollars in electricity.

And yes, I know there’s an argument everyone likes to pull out regarding upfront costs of an EV vs a cheap gas car, but those can be negated (I paid little more for both of our Volts used vs what a comparatively equipped gas car would have cost us), and as prices on EV’s drop in the future, that argument will eventually be eliminated completely.

And then all you’re left with is the fact that EV’s are actually dirt cheap to drive.

And when the EV pickup trucks start showing up (it’s inevitable) and people realize that instead of $20 for every 100Km in gas they can spend $2 or $3 in electricity to do the same thing, eyes will start to open. However, the manufacturers really need to start waking up the masses to those realities. It’s a VERY common misconception right now that EV’s actually cost more to operate than a gas car. The truth is anything but.

 

[raginduck]

My sales guy and the sales manager are definitely not as knowledgeable as they should be, but they were also not down on EV's at all. They never once tried to steer me away from either the Bolt or the Volt and were very proud of the EV sales they had been making as well as the dealership adding extra charging stations. At least they were until Ford crapped all over the incentive program...

The program never should have existed in the first place.

 

[ddusseld]

That is the rub. For me, and I suspect a lot of other drivers, convenience wins over cost.

Can the cost benefits be brought to the point where this flips? Imo, it will require something pretty special. Only the future
will tell us that. Imo, the only way EV/alternate fuel vehicles will become the norm without being equal in convenience to gas
driven cars will be because the gov't forces the change.

When gas is back up to $1.30L and your car costs you $9-$10 so for every 100KM you drive, if you had an option that went the same distance for about $1 instead, would that change your mind?

And instead of needing an oil change and other drivetrain related maintenance every few months, the maintenance schedule consisted solely of “Rotate tires every 12 months”, would that also interest you?

Because those are very real benefits of EV’s.

That was the big driver for me. I went from spending $80 a week on gas in my old car to spending a few dollars in electricity.

And yes, I know there’s an argument everyone likes to pull out regarding upfront costs of an EV vs a cheap gas car, but those can be negated (I paid little more for both of our Volts used vs what a comparatively equipped gas car would have cost us), and as prices on EV’s drop in the future, that argument will eventually be eliminated completely.

And then all you’re left with is the fact that EV’s are actually dirt cheap to drive.

And when the EV pickup trucks start showing up (it’s inevitable) and people realize that instead of $20 for every 100Km in gas they can spend $2 or $3 in electricity to do the same thing, eyes will start to open. However, the manufacturers really need to start waking up the masses to those realities. It’s a VERY common misconception right now that EV’s actually cost more to operate than a gas car. The truth is anything but.

 

[Lunatic]

Convenience is defined by the individual user. I find our EV's far more convenient since I no longer need to stop at a gas station twice a week to fill up. Especially in the winter, no freezing my *** off in the mornings. I walk out to a pre-heated, fully charged car every morning. Add in the $5000+ that I've saved in fuel costs in the last year, and the greatly reduced maintenance costs and I'm very happy with the switch to EVs.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Convenience is defined by the individual user. I find our EV's far more convenient since I no longer need to stop at a gas station twice a week to fill up. Especially in the winter, no freezing my *** off in the mornings. I walk out to a pre-heated, fully charged car every morning. Add in the $5000+ that I've saved in fuel costs in the last year, and the greatly reduced maintenance costs and I'm very happy with the switch to EVs.

Spoken by someone who actually owns an EV and understands the reality.

Unfortunately others looking in are seemingly looking for reasons to trash EV’s whilst either not understanding (or just disregarding because of bias) the many benefits.

I understand we are in the infancy stage right now, but the sheer money savings that can be had once prices become more competitive (or you buy used, like we did) are impossible to ignore. For someone who drives a lot the savings can be even more exponential versus what I mentioned above.

 

[Mad Mike]

Spoken by someone who actually owns an EV and understands the reality.

Unfortunately others looking in are seemingly looking for reasons to trash EV’s whilst either not understanding (or just disregarding because of bias) the many benefits.

I understand we are in the infancy stage right now, but the sheer money savings that can be had once prices become more competitive (or you buy used, like we did) are impossible to ignore. For someone who drives a lot the savings can be even more exponential versus what I mentioned above.

You can argue either way on convenience, and it's possible to provide alternative solutions for the rare circumstances where EVs don't work.

The hardest thing to overcome is cost of ownership. Lunatic's saved $5000 in fuel costs last year, to do that one would need to fit into an extremely tight niche -- to achieve those savings one would need to commute to the car's range every day AND have the means and time to fully recharge twice a day with almost no margin of error or additional range. He would need to drive 75,000/km per year -- or about 3x the average for GTA drivers. His the break even would be north of 300,000KM at last years gas prices -- and over 400,000KM if prices stay at or below $1/l. At that mileage it's hard to know how the resale value, cost of battery degradation or replacement battery's impacts the total cost of ownership equation.

The bottom line is that EV's do not yet clearly appeal to the masses -- mainly because they are not yet economically viable. For that to change the price of gas/diesel would need to be more than double today's prices for a sustained period.

I don't think you must own an EV to do the math.

 

[caboose56]

Ill preface this post by clearly admitting that i practically stole my car and these numbers do not reflect the reality of buying new... nor even used for the most part.

As previously mentioned I bought my Volt for $8400.

Compared to my truck I’m saving about $10/day in fuel. When compared to the truck after approx 840 days of commuting the car has entirely paid for itself in fuel savings. Thats 3 years and 4 months. That’s not the break even point, that’s the point at which the car has 100% paid for itself in fuel savings.

I had been looking at other 5-door hatches but there was virtually nothing 2010 or newer in decent shape for much less $. Matrix, Focus, Mazda3, etc were all similar money. For me and the driving I do the savings are significant. I didn’t pay any extra for my Volt than a comparable ICE propelled vehicle would have cost me. Thus, my “break even” point was the first day. Ever since it’s been gravy.... amazing aromatic gravy on garlic mashed potatoes.

 

[Mad Mike]

Ill preface this post by clearly admitting that i practically stole my car and these numbers do not reflect the reality of buying new... nor even used for the most part.

As previously mentioned I bought my Volt for $8400.

Compared to my truck I’m saving about $10/day in fuel. When compared to the truck after approx 840 days of commuting the car has entirely paid for itself in fuel savings. Thats 3 years and 4 months. That’s not the break even point, that’s the point at which the car has 100% paid for itself in fuel savings.

I had been looking at other 5-door hatches but there was virtually nothing 2010 or newer in decent shape for much less $. Matrix, Focus, Mazda3, etc were all similar money. For me and the driving I do the savings are significant. I didn’t pay any extra for my Volt than a comparable ICE propelled vehicle would have cost me. Thus, my “break even” point was the first day. Ever since it’s been gravy.... amazing aromatic gravy on garlic mashed potatoes.

Again, a very unique situation, you got a great deal on the car so the economics worked out (as would the economics if your great aunt left you her paid off F150 -- that would be breaking even day 1).

The point is Ludicrous and Caboose56 are not typical and certainly not close to the economics expected by the masses. In Ludicrous case, there is a precise long commute with little margin for error, in Caboose56 a discounted purchase price that distorts the real premium on EVs.

There will be plenty of these cases, and they will cut both ways. The bottom line is cars need to be economically viable when new... otherwise there is no secondary market!

 

[shanekingsley]

money money money...
What a wife.

 

[PrivatePilot]

He would need to drive 75,000/km per year -- or about 3x the average for GTA drivers. His the break even would be north of 300,000KM at last years gas prices -- and over 400,000KM if prices stay at or below $1/l.

Umm...what exactly are you comparing against to generate these break even numbers?

A Prius? A pickup truck? Something brand new? Something used? What EV are you using for your math - a ~$15,000 used Volt, or a $150,000 Tesla model X?

Yeah, it's most certainly not the pickup truck, to use but one comparison. Compared to my pickup truck I used to own I'd actually be saving about $400-$500/month in fuel costs alone using it as my daily driver, so yeah, based on those numbers, and what I paid for my Volt, it would completely pay for itself (no "break even" calculations, read it again, it would COMPLETELY PAY FOR ITSELF) in a little over 2 years of ownership! Beyond that, you're laughing - the money I would have spent on fuel bought me a car, and I continue to reap the rewards.

I did the calculations somewhere in this thread a few billion responses back, but IIRC, versus my wife's old Chrysler 300 that the Volt replaced, her Volt will completely pay for itself in fuel savings (with her driving about 25,000KM/year) in about 4 years of ownership.

So, yeah, I've no idea where those numbers you're posting are coming from. Please, break down the math for us.

 

[caboose56]

I’m on pace to drive about 23-25k annually and my fuel savings will be about $2500-$3000 annually.... compared to my truck.

Hypothetically, if I were buying new and comparing a Volt to a similarly equipped ICE propelled vehicle how much more would the Volt cost to purchase? With the tax rebates now gone the premium would be about $15k?

The new ICE car would probably be about $2000/yr for fuel whereas the Volt would be about $350/yr for power. That reflects a savings of about $1650/yr if driving 25k. So that’s probably how MM came up with the requirement to drive 75k/yr to realize $5000/yr in fuel savings.

 

[Lunatic]

Just to note, I have two EV's a Volt and a Bolt, and they replaced a 2015 Colorado pickup and a 2006 Cadillac CTS-V. So my fuel savings are based on the same amount of driving vs those two vehicles. The Colorado was averaging 11.5L/100km and the CTS-V was closer to 13L/100km of premium gas. In one year we have a combined 60K on the two EVs. The Volt now has 20K on it and only 2K has been on the ICE. We fill it up so rarely that we pretty much pay for all fill ups with air miles collected from buying groceries so our net fuel costs for the year are practically zero, not including the motorcycles, mower, and snowblower.

 

[ddusseld]

I agree, convenience is individual. I'm just saying that I believe many drivers are like me and the following would happen.

I know myself well enough to know I'd be walking out to a cold, under charge car pretty much every morning. I'd have to somehow actually pay attention to how much "fuel" is in my car and I just have never done that. Maybe I could change but not likely.

Now if after forgetting to charge my car I could plug it in and in 5-10 minutes have a fully charged car then yay, I'm in the market for one..

Convenience is defined by the individual user. I find our EV's far more convenient since I no longer need to stop at a gas station twice a week to fill up. Especially in the winter, no freezing my *** off in the mornings. I walk out to a pre-heated, fully charged car every morning. Add in the $5000+ that I've saved in fuel costs in the last year, and the greatly reduced maintenance costs and I'm very happy with the switch to EVs.

 

[GreyGhost]

I agree, convenience is individual. I'm just saying that I believe many drivers are like me and the following would happen.

I know myself well enough to know I'd be walking out to a cold, under charge car pretty much every morning. I'd have to somehow actually pay attention to how much "fuel" is in my car and I just have never done that. Maybe I could change but not likely.

Now if after forgetting to charge my car I could plug it in and in 5-10 minutes have a fully charged car then yay, I'm in the market for one..

I don't understand this "forgetting to plug it in" problem. It's like locking your car. It takes two seconds and quickly becomes a habit. It seems much easier to me to know you are starting every day to a full car, then two times a week coming out to an empty car and having to fit a gas stop into your plans.

Charging an EV in 10 minutes will likely never be possible. The amount of power transfer required is nuts and would be hard for a household supply and the battery to cope with. If really fast charges were necessary, a battery swap is likely your best bet. Tesla was in the best position to have a network of battery swap stations and they have obviously decided to back charging instead. That probably limits battery swap to potential fleet applications (eg. if a manufacturer makes a dedicated EV taxi).

 

[Mad Mike]

Umm...what exactly are you comparing against to generate these break even numbers?

A Prius? A pickup truck? Something brand new? Something used? What EV are you using for your math - a ~$15,000 used Volt, or a $150,000 Tesla model X?

Yeah, it's most certainly not the pickup truck, to use but one comparison. Compared to my pickup truck I used to own I'd actually be saving about $400-$500/month in fuel costs alone using it as my daily driver, so yeah, based on those numbers, and what I paid for my Volt, it would completely pay for itself (no "break even" calculations, read it again, it would COMPLETELY PAY FOR ITSELF) in a little over 2 years of ownership! Beyond that, you're laughing - the money I would have spent on fuel bought me a car, and I continue to reap the rewards.

I did the calculations somewhere in this thread a few billion responses back, but IIRC, versus my wife's old Chrysler 300 that the Volt replaced, her Volt will completely pay for itself in fuel savings (with her driving about 25,000KM/year) in about 4 years of ownership.

So, yeah, I've no idea where those numbers you're posting are coming from. Please, break down the math for us.

Quite frankly it doesn't matter as long as you make an apples to apples comparison. Comparing your old pickup or Mopar 300 to an EV means nothing in the context of this discussion - it's no different than comparing it to a moped or bus pass -- any cheaper form of transport saves money.

The comparison is between the EV and an equivalent ICE - which replaces that pickup with the best TCO? This means when you decide to replace that Mopar 300, you compare a Volt to a Cruze (or Leaf to Micra, or Tesla to an ATS), not to the old girl.

 

[800over]

Quite frankly it doesn't matter as long as you make an apples to apples comparison. Comparing your old pickup or Mopar 300 to an EV means nothing in the context of this discussion - it's no different than comparing it to a moped or bus pass -- any cheaper form of transport saves money.

The comparison is between the EV and an equivalent ICE - which replaces that pickup with the best TCO? This means when you decide to replace that Mopar 300, you compare a Volt to a Cruze (or Leaf to Micra, or Tesla to an ATS), not to the old girl.

Currently that is why Hybrids are the way to go.

Toyota Rav4 gas model is $2000 less than a Hybrid and I tell my guests that they should all buy the Hybrid if they are buying AWD. It'll pay for itself easily over 4 years even with only driving 20k per year. But when you say you save $600 a month going from a truck to a smaller electric vehicle you would have saved at least $300 going to ANY small vehicle. Right now most plug in vehicles do NOT compete with a similar vehicle unless you drive a significant amount or own the car for a significant amount of time.