Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?

[Mad Mike]

Just to note, I have two EV's a Volt and a Bolt, and they replaced a 2015 Colorado pickup and a 2006 Cadillac CTS-V. So my fuel savings are based on the same amount of driving vs those two vehicles. The Colorado was averaging 11.5L/100km and the CTS-V was closer to 13L/100km of premium gas. In one year we have a combined 60K on the two EVs. The Volt now has 20K on it and only 2K has been on the ICE. We fill it up so rarely that we pretty much pay for all fill ups with air miles collected from buying groceries so our net fuel costs for the year are practically zero, not including the motorcycles, mower, and snowblower.

OK, so your $5K wasn't what you achieved by switching vehicles -- not what you saved by choosing an EV over an ICE.

So lets look at the Volt vs Cruze decision at 24,000km/year. A Volt costs at least $20K more than than a Cruze, her ICE sister so we start with $20K additional capital cost for the Volt.

A Volt uses about 0.15kwh/km at an average cost of $0.12/kwh for Hydro, so the total fuel cost is about $430/year (assumes no use of gasoline).
A Cruze uses about 7.4l/kmm, at last year's average $1.18/l the cost of fuel is $2100
Net savings for Volt: $1670 (this year that savings forecast is $1300)

Let's assume the cars are traded in after 5, years and 125,000km. A 2013 VOLT with 125K sells for $17500, the same year Cruze $7500. So, tallying the cost of fuel and capital cost of each cars, the Volt cost $28660, the Cruze $23200 -- at 5 years the Cruze is cheaper by $5460.

It gets trickier as the cars get older - OR - if you're a high miler. At the guess is the Volt starts to become cheaper at about year 7 or 160k kilometers for 2 reasons: they hold resale value longer which eliminated the capital cost advantage for the Cruze, and 2) they continue to deliver annual fuel savings.

 

[Jayv]

Not sure if this has already been posted.

[video=youtube;k7rKsZZPT1Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=k7rKsZZPT1Y[/video]

 

[shanekingsley]

Since fuel isn't everything - a couple other things to factor in the Volt vs Cruze comparison:
Currently well over 20k on my 2018 Volt and the oil life is showing over 50%. So an oil change every 50k compared to my wife's similar ICE vehicle every 5k. So she needs oil changes 10x more often.

Brakes are showing almost zero use in my 20k, so that's harder to gauge, but I recall reading that it's quite common to not need brake work due to the regen. Brakes on these cars are well known to go over 150k with no need for replacement. Certainly can't say the same for a similar ICE.

But the easiest calculation remains... I still pass hundreds of Cruze's every day while I blast by in the HOV lane. This saves me 100 hours a year, which alone exceeds the price difference noted above of $5k. This is then spent posting on GTAM in these highly scientific threads.

 

[Lunatic]

OK, so your $5K wasn't what you achieved by switching vehicles -- not what you saved by choosing an EV over an ICE.

So lets look at the Volt vs Cruze decision at 24,000km/year. A Volt costs at least $20K more than than a Cruze, her ICE sister so we start with $20K additional capital cost for the Volt.

A Volt uses about 0.15kwh/km at an average cost of $0.12/kwh for Hydro, so the total fuel cost is about $430/year (assumes no use of gasoline).
A Cruze uses about 7.4l/kmm, at last year's average $1.18/l the cost of fuel is $2100
Net savings for Volt: $1670 (this year that savings forecast is $1300)

Let's assume the cars are traded in after 5, years and 125,000km. A 2013 VOLT with 125K sells for $17500, the same year Cruze $7500. So, tallying the cost of fuel and capital cost of each cars, the Volt cost $28660, the Cruze $23200 -- at 5 years the Cruze is cheaper by $5460.

It gets trickier as the cars get older - OR - if you're a high miler. At the guess is the Volt starts to become cheaper at about year 7 or 160k kilometers for 2 reasons: they hold resale value longer which eliminated the capital cost advantage for the Cruze, and 2) they continue to deliver annual fuel savings.

Just making it into a math problem omits too many other factors. If I was only concerned about the bottom dollar I could have bought a couple of used econoboxes for a couple of grand a piece and called it a day, and I would certainly be spending less money overall.

But that is not the only consideration. I wanted to have new(ish), reliable, low maintenance vehicles. After driving an EV I found that I greatly enjoyed the experience, and the more usable performance compared to a regular ICE vehicle. I also want to see EVs become widely adopted because I think it is better for everyone in the long run. If nobody buys them then there would be no impetus for the car companies to develop them. I was in a position to make the purchases so I jumped on it.

 

[Mad Mike]

Since fuel isn't everything - a couple other things to factor in the Volt vs Cruze comparison:
Currently well over 20k on my 2018 Volt and the oil life is showing over 50%. So an oil change every 50k compared to my wife's similar ICE vehicle every 5k. So she needs oil changes 10x more often.

Brakes are showing almost zero use in my 20k, so that's harder to gauge, but I recall reading that it's quite common to not need brake work due to the regen. Brakes on these cars are well known to go over 150k with no need for replacement. Certainly can't say the same for a similar ICE.

But the easiest calculation remains... I still pass hundreds of Cruze's every day while I blast by in the HOV lane. This saves me 100 hours a year, which alone exceeds the price difference noted above of $5k. This is then spent posting on GTAM in these highly scientific threads.

I always try to avoid the maintenance cost in comparisons, only because it gets so nit picky. Your Volt needs an ICE oil change periodically, probably every 1/2 as often as a Cruze. A Cruse comes with 4 free LOFs, so that's about the same for years 1-4. Your Volt also needs a drive fluid change at 3 years or 70K, at a cost of $200 + 4 hours DIY or about $750 at a dealer (that buys a lifetime of Jiffylube's for a Cruze.)

You do have the HOV advantage -- but remember that's provincial (40x) highways only -- green plates are not HOV privileged everywhere.

Again it comes down to niche - if you fit into one you're gonna be very attracted to EVs -- unfortunately a 2% niche is a tough bet in the long term. EV players need to get get the cost down to get the appeal up -- they have to make the economics work for more than the 2% (and declining) share they currently have.

Don't read me wrong, I'm all for EVs and I really really wish they were getting more popular. I also went through the cost / benefit analysis (twice) trying to convince myself I could at least break even -- could never arrive at a scenario where and EV worked for me.

 

[Mad Mike]

Just making it into a math problem omits too many other factors. If I was only concerned about the bottom dollar I could have bought a couple of used econoboxes for a couple of grand a piece and called it a day, and I would certainly be spending less money overall.

But that is not the only consideration. I wanted to have new(ish), reliable, low maintenance vehicles. After driving an EV I found that I greatly enjoyed the experience, and the more usable performance compared to a regular ICE vehicle. I also want to see EVs become widely adopted because I think it is better for everyone in the long run. If nobody buys them then there would be no impetus for the car companies to develop them. I was in a position to make the purchases so I jumped on it.

Define: Early Adopter. ^^^^^

 

[GreyGhost]

Since fuel isn't everything - a couple other things to factor in the Volt vs Cruze comparison:
Currently well over 20k on my 2018 Volt and the oil life is showing over 50%. So an oil change every 50k compared to my wife's similar ICE vehicle every 5k. So she needs oil changes 10x more often.

Brakes are showing almost zero use in my 20k, so that's harder to gauge, but I recall reading that it's quite common to not need brake work due to the regen. Brakes on these cars are well known to go over 150k with no need for replacement. Certainly can't say the same for a similar ICE.

But the easiest calculation remains... I still pass hundreds of Cruze's every day while I blast by in the HOV lane. This saves me 100 hours a year, which alone exceeds the price difference noted above of $5k. This is then spent posting on GTAM in these highly scientific threads.

A friend is a toyota mechanic and he does more brakes on priuses than conventional ice cars. Because they get used so little they dont heat up often and just rot in place. Glad to gm solved that problem (which seems trvially easy, it makes you wonder if toyota does it on purpose to drive repair traffic to the dealers???).

 

[800over]

A friend is a toyota mechanic and he does more brakes on priuses than conventional ice cars. Because they get used so little they dont heat up often and just rot in place. Glad to gm solved that problem (which seems trvially easy, it makes you wonder if toyota does it on purpose to drive repair traffic to the dealers???).

It only happens when you don't do the recommended brake checks once every year. It's when people wait for 2 years to do a brake service they run into this. Yes your brakes can last 100k....but only if you check them every once in a while. Otherwise you are buying new brakes every 40k.

 

[Evoex]

It only happens when you don't do the recommended brake checks once every year. It's when people wait for 2 years to do a brake service they run into this. Yes your brakes can last 100k....but only if you check them every once in a while. Otherwise you are buying new brakes every 40k.

I assume you're being model specific here?

 

[PrivatePilot]

I don't understand this "forgetting to plug it in" problem. It's like locking your car. It takes two seconds and quickly becomes a habit.

Agreed. It does become habit in short order and you don't even think about it anymore. Pull into driveway, plug in, the end.

Charging an EV in 10 minutes will likely never be possible. The amount of power transfer required is nuts and would be hard for a household supply and the battery to cope with.

Not sure I agree there. Supercapacitors, if they ever reach the technological level to be viable for an EV, have the capacity to be recharged extremely quickly - probably *less* than 10 minutes for hundreds of kilometers of driving. Yes, your average household (even one with 200A service) isn't going to have the capability to reach those levels of charge rate, but public charging stations could.

We are still in the infancy stage right now. The next 10 or 15 years is going to be very interesting.

 

[800over]

I assume you're being model specific here?

I am speaking specifically about Toyota products...all of them recommend a brake services that people like to skip. People get told that Prius brakes last forever so they take that to mean they don't have to check them. It is all what you want to hear. I tell people all the time that their first service is at 8000kms.....and that their first oil change is at 16000kms. How many do you think show up at 16000kms and say "i was told i didn't have to do anything till 16000kms"?

 

[sburns]

It only happens when you don't do the recommended brake checks once every year. It's when people wait for 2 years to do a brake service they run into this. Yes your brakes can last 100k....but only if you check them every once in a while. Otherwise you are buying new brakes every 40k.

I have my original brakes, actually all original parts, except wiper blades, on my 2014 Toyota Camry Hybrid, and I just passed 105,000. I just need new tires. Been doing yearly brake service.

I did the brake service on my last car as well, 2008 Honda Accord. Brakes lasted until about 110,000 when I traded it in.

I never did break service on my previous cars which may have explained why I was going through pads more often. But then again they where not well made cars like Toyota and Honda either.


Sent from the moon!

 

[Evoex]

I have my original brakes, actually all original parts, except wiper blades, on my 2014 Toyota Camry Hybrid, and I just passed 105,000. I just need new tires. Been doing yearly brake service.

I did the brake service on my last car as well, 2008 Honda Accord. Brakes lasted until about 110,000 when I traded it in.

I never did break service on my previous cars which may have explained why I was going through pads more often. But then again they where not well made cars like Toyota and Honda either.


Sent from the moon!

Yes i was just going to say, just did the front brakes on my 13' Optima @ 108k. Didn't so much as glance at them for 5 years.

 

[Evoex]

I am speaking specifically about Toyota products...all of them recommend a brake services that people like to skip. People get told that Prius brakes last forever so they take that to mean they don't have to check them. It is all what you want to hear. I tell people all the time that their first service is at 8000kms.....and that their first oil change is at 16000kms. How many do you think show up at 16000kms and say "i was told i didn't have to do anything till 16000kms"?

Gotcha.

 

[Mad Mike]

Agreed. It does become habit in short order and you don't even think about it anymore. Pull into driveway, plug in, the end.



Not sure I agree there. Supercapacitors, if they ever reach the technological level to be viable for an EV, have the capacity to be recharged extremely quickly - probably *less* than 10 minutes for hundreds of kilometers of driving. Yes, your average household (even one with 200A service) isn't going to have the capability to reach those levels of charge rate, but public charging stations could.

We are still in the infancy stage right now. The next 10 or 15 years is going to be very interesting.

200 AMP service would charge a supercapicitor VOLT in 3.9 minutes - realistically 1/2 the service would be practical as it would unlikely interfere with the home -- about 8 minutes.

Challenge is to get the cost of capacitors down -- they are currently about 5x the cost of batteries and batteries are still too expensive.

 

[PrivatePilot]

And exactly as I mentioned a few days ago that an electric pickup truck was inevitable...

Boom.

Ford is developing a fully electric F-series pickup truck : https://www.engadget.com/2019/01/17/ford-fully-electric-f-series-pickup-truck/

 

[Evoex]

Since fuel isn't everything - a couple other things to factor in the Volt vs Cruze comparison:
Currently well over 20k on my 2018 Volt and the oil life is showing over 50%. So an oil change every 50k compared to my wife's similar ICE vehicle every 5k. So she needs oil changes 10x more often.

Oil breaks down over time as well, assuming your engine runs here and there. Probably even worse with short stints due to operating temperature and the chance for water vapor to start diluting it.

Only saying, can't go by mileage alone. And i wouldn't trust that oil life gauge for crap.

Be interested to see if it lines up with the owners manual, i assume it says "oil change every x kms/or 6 months".

 

[caboose56]

Oil breaks down over time as well, assuming your engine runs here and there. Probably even worse with short stints due to operating temperature and the chance for water vapor to start diluting it.

Only saying, can't go by mileage alone. And i wouldn't trust that oil life gauge for crap.

Be interested to see if it lines up with the owners manual, i assume it says "oil change every x kms/or 6 months".

According to my oil life monitor I’ll be due for an oil change after about 90,000km.

However, the Volts internal maintenance minder will prompt an oil change after two years regardless of km.

 

[raginduck]

And exactly as I mentioned a few days ago that an electric pickup truck was inevitable...

Boom.

Ford is developing a fully electric F-series pickup truck : https://www.engadget.com/2019/01/17/ford-fully-electric-f-series-pickup-truck/

Ford was talking about it publicly months ago.

 

[GagguP]

I thought that'd happen and even set up reminders to plug it in thinking I'd forget. I can tell you after a few days it becomes like second nature, park, get out of the car, lock the door, plug it in, walk inside.

I agree, convenience is individual. I'm just saying that I believe many drivers are like me and the following would happen.

I know myself well enough to know I'd be walking out to a cold, under charge car pretty much every morning. I'd have to somehow actually pay attention to how much "fuel" is in my car and I just have never done that. Maybe I could change but not likely.

Now if after forgetting to charge my car I could plug it in and in 5-10 minutes have a fully charged car then yay, I'm in the market for one..