Shouldn't cost much, neighbour had their fuse box in the garage, so running 220 for what ever use whether it be charging a car or a welder shouldn't make a difference. You're running power to most garages anyways.
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Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?
- Thread starter PrivatePilot
- Start date
IIRC most level 2 chargers are 220V and 20 to 40A. Basically just need a dryer or stove-style outlet in the garage.
My 1K estimate was for a Siemens level 2 charger, 30 amp Siemens breaker, wire, plug and installation labour. That was after a rebate. I think the quote for a high-end NEMA 3 charger was considerably more but by that time I basically said forget it.
My 1K estimate was for a Siemens level 2 charger, 30 amp Siemens breaker, wire, plug and installation labour. That was after a rebate. I think the quote for a high-end NEMA 3 charger was considerably more but by that time I basically said forget it.
although most chargers call for "30amps", on the last Volt charger we did, We ran #8 wire good for 40 amps. The reason being that a charger is viewed as a "continuous" load and the electrical code calls for 80% of rated capacity for continuous loads.
Do the smart thing, and go up one size of wire to #8 and 40amp wire. You can still fuse it to 30amp and some will let you do 40amps but you won't over heat the wire and breaker like the one Tesla charger install we went to repair last year. Breaker was literally melting due to overloaded heat and burn your house down. trust me, wires running at full capacity for long periods of time get very hot!
By the way, we charge around $1000-$2000 for a professional hook up. depending on type of panel and distance. I recall the homeowner saying he was getting partial or all of the electric charger install cost back.
Do the smart thing, and go up one size of wire to #8 and 40amp wire. You can still fuse it to 30amp and some will let you do 40amps but you won't over heat the wire and breaker like the one Tesla charger install we went to repair last year. Breaker was literally melting due to overloaded heat and burn your house down. trust me, wires running at full capacity for long periods of time get very hot!
By the way, we charge around $1000-$2000 for a professional hook up. depending on type of panel and distance. I recall the homeowner saying he was getting partial or all of the electric charger install cost back.
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I honestly don't see it being in the Building Code, they don't care about "convenience items", all they care about is smoke detectors, and railings.
The electrical code? I can see that coming in future editions. We just had a revision in 2015 (its revised every 4 years), and the next one will be in 2019. So guaranteed, it won't be a "code requirement" in new homes until at least 2019....
Public image is a massive issue, no doubt . Again, this thread and my own personal Facebook thread are excellent examples of all the perceived negatives (even given many of them being false), and not many of the actual positives.
People do think that electricity still costs more than gas, but that's anything but true unless you can find a car that will travel around 80 Kilometers on a little over 1 liter of gas (based on current prices), which would be the fair equivalent. That aint happening. My recent discussions with people have been eye opening when I mention that comparison.
You get basically 50% of the cost back for the installation of a level 2 charger, and if things go as planned overnight charging at home will be free for 4 years - this alone will relieve the cost concerns and will help adoption...and once people realize that charging an EV every night costs only around $40 or so (less than the cost of a tank of gas for even most fuel miser cars), that further alleviates peoples concerns.
Thanks. There are plusses, there are negatives. There are many variables. The key is understanding them and deciding if it works for you, and making that decision based on facts, not misinformation and doubt. When people understand EV's better and actually realize they can do 99% of their daily driving on electricity alone, and can opt for a range extended EV for that 1% of the time they can't, perceptions change...especially when things finally click and they understand the savings potential.
That's already in the cards:
https://news.ontario.ca/ene/en/2017/02/ontario-making-electric-vehicles-more-affordable.html
Again, having people not have to worry about the cost of wiring their garage/parking space for the electricity demands to begin with will help alleviate that concern, and the 50% rebate on the level 2 chargers mean then can be had for as little as a few hundred dollars at that point. All EV's come with at least a level 1 charger already, for the record, so if you don't NEED fast charging capability there's actually no cost at all as the standard level 1 chargers just plug into a regular receptacle.
And having workplaces with EV charger access once again helps with acceptance. When someone knows they don't have to worry about range and are kinda "gassing up for free" more or less, that helps as well.
Yes you're right...the math needs to work out for me to pull the trigger. However, I have a car that's worth approx 6-7k on the trade-in market (2010 Civic Si with 150k) and would like a car that's approx 15k (for the more recent MY Volts) so best case scenario I'd be looking at a difference of (just for fun) 13k - 7k = 6k + tax in order to get into a used Volt. Maintenance (so far) is minimal on my car, and the avg mileage is around 10-11l/100km.
Commute: 40km one way - no charger at work. Once I go back to my home office the commute is 8km/direction and there's a charger at work in the garage (which I could use and technically NOT charge at home overnight).
effectively I could run gas one way, and the electric the other way.
So I'd still have to do a LOT of kms in order to make the payoff make sense IMO to make up for the difference in purchase price.
If it was a diff of $2-3k to trade, there wouldn't be a thought given to the decision as it would be a very easy one to make.
My wife's daily kms are about 50-100km or so as she's got her own business and puts on a massive amount of kms / day but at least not in much traffic and her car gets around 8l/100km. Whichever car gets to the end of it's life first is the one we will replace with something newer.
rust check is recommended for the average car, how about the EV and range extended hybrid?
I don't see any particular reason why an EV or hybrid would be treated much different so far as rust treatment provided the people spraying don't start drilling into the battery compartment or anything. Typically the only thing they drill is door and other hatches / etc to spray inside.
There's no distinction. The bodyshells are built exactly the same way and they go down the same line. BUT ...
On most newer cars I don't recommend additional rust protection. Most manufacturers are using galvanized metal in critical areas and the e-coat and paint systems have gotten better, and they generally apply extra coatings in areas like rocker panels and fender liners. If you install extra rust protection you run the risk of violating the factory rust warranty.
My '96 Passat was just starting to get specks of surface rust after 10 years. My '06 Jetta was clean after 8 years on the whole main part of the body although the inner shields for the rear brakes (which are just e-coated thin sheet metal) had disintegrated. Both had 400,000+ km on them. It's getting fairly uncommon to see rusted-out heaps rolling down the road any more. There are of course certain exceptions but they're not within the scope of this thread.
on our 2006 optra it seems like anything that should move doesn't. things like latches and hinges stick
The Optra really isn't a GM vehicle, it's a rebadged Daewoo. Having owned a Chevy Aveo (also a Daewood under its skin) I can relate to your experience. Build quality was iffy on these....so despite being reliable for the most part (the Aveo was like a Timex from a "get you from A to B" standpoint), lots of little things were problematic. The rear hatch release on mine was horribly sticky from the day we bought it until the day I sold it. No amount of oil or lubrication of any sort, anywhere, would help.
I'm sure these half baked partnerships are not regarded highly by GM in hindsight. They didn't do much for GM's image in that already troubled tim period, that's for sure, but GM needed some small econobox cars and this was a simple way to get some on the road quickly.
As for rust protection, I've never had a bad experience. Yes, cars are far better now - both the ones in our driveway are 12 years old now and do have some rust, but mostly surface in a few spots. They're remarkably clean underneath and everywhere else though, but given where the rust *has* started I'm fairly confident that an aftermarket rust treatment would have stopped it from ever getting a foothold.
Certain vehicles would certainly benefit from it – look at any Dodge pick up truck for example – consistently after about three years of age the rear fenders beginning to rot away over the wheels.
I wouldn't rush out to have it done on a vehicle still under warranty, however once all of that is in the past I can't see how aftermarket rust protection would possibly hurt. I had my big 1-Ton finally rust-checked regularly for years and it held up well, however when I started slipping, within three or four years it begin to rust away.
I'm sure these half baked partnerships are not regarded highly by GM in hindsight. They didn't do much for GM's image in that already troubled tim period, that's for sure, but GM needed some small econobox cars and this was a simple way to get some on the road quickly.
As for rust protection, I've never had a bad experience. Yes, cars are far better now - both the ones in our driveway are 12 years old now and do have some rust, but mostly surface in a few spots. They're remarkably clean underneath and everywhere else though, but given where the rust *has* started I'm fairly confident that an aftermarket rust treatment would have stopped it from ever getting a foothold.
Certain vehicles would certainly benefit from it – look at any Dodge pick up truck for example – consistently after about three years of age the rear fenders beginning to rot away over the wheels.
I wouldn't rush out to have it done on a vehicle still under warranty, however once all of that is in the past I can't see how aftermarket rust protection would possibly hurt. I had my big 1-Ton finally rust-checked regularly for years and it held up well, however when I started slipping, within three or four years it begin to rust away.
The wife and I are going to look at the Volt at Ontario Motor Sales in Oshawa today.
My wife has approached her employer in Peterborough about plug in access and got a mostly positive result. They were looking long-term however, IE "What happens in 5 years if we end up with 20 employees with EV's as a result of this?" but that's manageable from a cost perspective (at least making it break-even, if they decide they want or need to charge for the electricity down the road) using a managed service like Flo.
I'm sitting on a line still though based on the access to a charge at work, vs no charge at work. I've done a lot of number crunching over the last few days.
Worst case scenario: I keep reminding myself that no matter what the Volt will still handily win on operating expenses when compared to the Chrysler 300 v6 she's currently driving. Worst case scenario, she drives a bit more than 3/4 of the way to work on electric, runs the last 15K or so on gas, and then drives home entirely on gas - again, worst case for the time being, no charge possible at work. By conservative calculations she will use about 5L of gas in this approach, as opposed to the ~16-17L she's currently using in the 300.
So, by the "no matter what, we still win" approach, it's ~66% more efficient vs her current ride. That'll probably stretch up to about 75% more efficient in the summer when EV range is at it's maximum because of the weather.
Best case scenario: My wife gets access to either a level 1 charger at work, or quite possibly, a level 2 charger, those numbers get significantly better - still a slight gas use every day as the battery alone will not carry her the entire commute, but we'd be down to about 1.5L of gas, maybe 2.0L in the winter when the engine is going to run more because of earlier battery depletion. In this scenario, we are talking nearly 90% more efficient vs the 300 in ideal conditions.
I am aware that the "worst case scenario" situation (where we don't get access to a charger at work), based on her commute, puts the Volt into the range of that magic 144 Kilometer number where the Volt basically achieves the same economy as a regular Hybrid like the Prius in the end, and that IS in the back of my head.
A deciding factor on that would be three things:
1- Preference. I still like the looks of the Volt better than the Prius.
2- The bigger picture. When we CAN achieve a full trip such weekend running around (for example, taking my daughter up to the stable today for riding, a trip we can do entirely on electric for about 75 cents of electricity alone vs roughly 6L of gas in my v8 car) the Volt wins handily vs any other non plug-in Hybrid.
3- Purchase price. The Volt we are looking at has been discounted to below $14K, and I won't be shy in trying to get that reduced even more. On trader.ca I see only one Prius in the similar year/mileage, lesser equipped (cloth vs leather interior), and still around $2K more. MOST Prius' are are in the range of $2K to $4+K more in the end when comparing 1:1 vs how the Volt is equipped.
My wife has approached her employer in Peterborough about plug in access and got a mostly positive result. They were looking long-term however, IE "What happens in 5 years if we end up with 20 employees with EV's as a result of this?" but that's manageable from a cost perspective (at least making it break-even, if they decide they want or need to charge for the electricity down the road) using a managed service like Flo.
I'm sitting on a line still though based on the access to a charge at work, vs no charge at work. I've done a lot of number crunching over the last few days.
Worst case scenario: I keep reminding myself that no matter what the Volt will still handily win on operating expenses when compared to the Chrysler 300 v6 she's currently driving. Worst case scenario, she drives a bit more than 3/4 of the way to work on electric, runs the last 15K or so on gas, and then drives home entirely on gas - again, worst case for the time being, no charge possible at work. By conservative calculations she will use about 5L of gas in this approach, as opposed to the ~16-17L she's currently using in the 300.
So, by the "no matter what, we still win" approach, it's ~66% more efficient vs her current ride. That'll probably stretch up to about 75% more efficient in the summer when EV range is at it's maximum because of the weather.
Best case scenario: My wife gets access to either a level 1 charger at work, or quite possibly, a level 2 charger, those numbers get significantly better - still a slight gas use every day as the battery alone will not carry her the entire commute, but we'd be down to about 1.5L of gas, maybe 2.0L in the winter when the engine is going to run more because of earlier battery depletion. In this scenario, we are talking nearly 90% more efficient vs the 300 in ideal conditions.
I am aware that the "worst case scenario" situation (where we don't get access to a charger at work), based on her commute, puts the Volt into the range of that magic 144 Kilometer number where the Volt basically achieves the same economy as a regular Hybrid like the Prius in the end, and that IS in the back of my head.
A deciding factor on that would be three things:
1- Preference. I still like the looks of the Volt better than the Prius.
2- The bigger picture. When we CAN achieve a full trip such weekend running around (for example, taking my daughter up to the stable today for riding, a trip we can do entirely on electric for about 75 cents of electricity alone vs roughly 6L of gas in my v8 car) the Volt wins handily vs any other non plug-in Hybrid.
3- Purchase price. The Volt we are looking at has been discounted to below $14K, and I won't be shy in trying to get that reduced even more. On trader.ca I see only one Prius in the similar year/mileage, lesser equipped (cloth vs leather interior), and still around $2K more. MOST Prius' are are in the range of $2K to $4+K more in the end when comparing 1:1 vs how the Volt is equipped.
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Nice looking car and def a good price. Id prefer to go to the next gen as I've read better things about it, and the 132k is not something id be comfortable with.
i think it's awesome the amount of research you've done but in the end you won't know your costs of driving/charging and overall use until you get one and live with it daily.
i look forward to learning more as I'm slowly converting. LoL
i think it's awesome the amount of research you've done but in the end you won't know your costs of driving/charging and overall use until you get one and live with it daily.
i look forward to learning more as I'm slowly converting. LoL
The next gen Volt is nice, the increased range makes it ideal for a hug majority of commuters who could go to and from work without even needing a charge at work, but from a pure money saving aspect, for me at least, it's not a price I could justify.
Same reason I haven't considers a Volt until now when prices are down to a justifiable level.
132K doesn't bother me at all, it'd actually be the lowest mileage used car I've ever bought. Still has a warranty on the battery for another 3 years or 30,000K as well, but knowing what I now know I'm really not concerned about battery longevity.
Same reason I haven't considers a Volt until now when prices are down to a justifiable level.
132K doesn't bother me at all, it'd actually be the lowest mileage used car I've ever bought. Still has a warranty on the battery for another 3 years or 30,000K as well, but knowing what I now know I'm really not concerned about battery longevity.
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Your point of comparison shouldn't be the 300 but a subcompact that compares in size to the Volt. Like Brian P said, you can assume 7L/100km with one of them and work out the best case / worst case operating savings from there. The Volt's advantage isn't nearly as strong that way.
Well, I have to compare to the 300...as it's what we have. If we owned a Civic or something already then yes the math wouldn't work out nearly as beneficial...but one must compare from the vehicle we have to the vehicles we are considering, and currently, that's a 300.
So, if I compare to something similar as an alternative vehicle vs the Volt, let's use 2012 Accords - 4 door sedan and moderately equipped with at least leather, bluetooth, and power everything. On trader.ca as pricing reference it shows $13200 as market value for roughly the same car as the Volt.
But, the Volt still wins handily on economy...especially when it it appears that the 2012 model year Accord averages 9.2L/100K over 9.5 million kilometers tracked. That's a far cry from what the Volt will achieve even in worst case scenarios when it's run on gas alone with a dead battery.
I would struggle to find any negatives with aftermarket rust protection after a vehicle is 4-5 years old. And yes, ask anyone who owns a vehicle more than about 7-8 years old and you'll find out that rust is still very much an issue, and after about 10 years of age it usually starts to show on visible exterior panels like door seams and such. Both of our current 05's have some visible rust, my wifes 300 on the passenger side rear door lip, and my Magnum on the rear hatch.
A friend of mine cursed at the fact that the car i bought had never been rust checked when he was working on it for me.
48Connor
Well-known member
Wait are you saying you start rustproofing your car after you've had it for 4 or 5 years? You might as well not even bother at that point....
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