Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?

[-D-]

Europe is much different in many things. As such it's not a very useful data point to be measured up against. First of, most Euro cities have a meaningful public transit (we do not). Part of it is their density when compared to ours. Secondly, the uptake of diesel cars vs. gasoline cars were up to VW dieselgate 70/30% (we do not have that .... we are more like 5/95% when you consider passenger cars and light trucks ... I am estimating here, since it's hard to find the meaningless number).

So we can talk all we want how cool it is in Norway, that they will ban ICE cars in 10 years and that 40% of their vehicles sold today are EV's, but that is not a feasible path for Toronto, Ontario or Canada. Also, countries like Norway, have no auto industry, so there's no jobs at stake as they import all of their cars and don't manufacture much to support such important industry to us.

Anyway ... I digress from PP's thread.

Lol, 10-15 years...they can't even decide on a subway extension or how many stops and that has been occurring since 1980's (37 years later) and still figuring it out.
Hell, they can't even figure out 1 way streets for downtown TO. There is a reason they killed that toll and likely the same reason they are not implementing the taxes we see in Euro countries (congestion tax...when you come into the city).

 

[blackcamaro]

Not based on my searching on trader.ca it isn't.

For example, the 2012 Volt I was looking at had about 75,000K on it, was reasonably loaded (short of heated seats, something we would want) and was priced at $16900.

Looking at trader.ca a similar equipped & mileage 2012 Civic is in the $15,000 to $16,000 range. To get cheaper than that in the same model year you are looking at base models, or significantly more mileage.

Take another look at the autotrader. You can find 2012 Civic EX (Sunroof, Bluetooth, steering wheel controls, nice alloys etc) automatic sedans between $11,500 to $13,000, with some of those being at the Honda dealer. So by your example that's a price difference of $4000-5500, that is significant on a vehicle under $20,000. The spread is even greater if you look at 2014's.

 

[-D-]

Take another look at the autotrader. You can find 2012 Civic EX (Sunroof, Bluetooth, steering wheel controls, nice alloys etc) automatic sedans between $11,500 to $13,000, with some of those being at the Honda dealer. So by your example that's a price difference of $4000-5500, that is significant on a vehicle under $20,000. The spread is even greater if you look at 2014's.

some of those probably have extended warranties on them

I think that is the stumbling block for most ppl...it does not add up on the gas savings.

What is the life on a Volt with 72k?

 

[slowbird]

I'd pay $4k extra on the price of a car just so I wouldn't be driving a Honda Civic. (my personal preference)

Besides, the Volt has all that Torque and instant power. Not to mention free use of HOV lanes.

I've always thought the same that the cost of the car outweights the savings but looking at what LBV posted and comparing it to my operating costs I'd be saving aprox $3k/year alone in gas savings.

 

[SunnY S]

Not that is happens a lot but, how do you think a EV would perform in a traffic jam? Unscheduled, road closed due to a truck roll over or something during night, rain or ice rain?

That is where my range anxiety would set in.

Exactly. Too many people when looking at a electric car, think of "perfect" scenarios (ex. driving from toronto to windsor non stop on one charge LOLz with out thinking about finding a place to recharge, unplanned stops due to change in circumstances, say an emergency, a breakdown, alt route, traffic, cold weather issues).

Range anxiety for one as well noted, then you are stuck in traffic and go into "defense" mode to save battery.

I don't care what anybody says, plugging in a car every night and unplugging it every morning is also a royal PITA. I do multiple trips during some days and wondering if I should plug it in every single time would be extremely bothersome.

Sure the Volt has an onboard engine bla bla bla..... just get a Hybrid as Ive been preaching since the beginning of this thread, its a FULLY MATURE technology and you don't have to worry about much and you still get stellar mileage. You still have to on a Volt fill it with gas, change the oil and spark plugs right? nothing wrong with 50mpg in todays mid size sedan hybrid cars.

It just makes so much more sense at this moment, Electrics won't be mainstream relevant until 2025 to 2030 is my fearless prediction.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Take another look at the autotrader. You can find 2012 Civic EX (Sunroof, Bluetooth, steering wheel controls, nice alloys etc) automatic sedans between $11,500 to $13,000, with some of those being at the Honda dealer. So by your example that's a price difference of $4000-5500, that is significant on a vehicle under $20,000. The spread is even greater if you look at 2014's.

Fine, here's a 2012 Volt, moderately optioned out (leather, bluetooth, steering wheel radio controls, heated seats, even some nice aftermarket alloys) for under $14,000.

http://www.ontariomotorsales.com/used/Chevrolet-Volt.html

Listen, I'm not going to endlessly debate the fact that, yes, you will probably pay a premium (albeit a small one) for a Volt vs a ICE non-hybrid Civic. But to simply compare one to the other is to completely discard the realities of the savings - that Honda, according to fuelly.com (again, unbiased real world reporting) averages around 7.5L/100K. The average Volt owner records consumption inside a general range of 0.8L/100K to 2.4L/100K.

Those numbers do not take a rocket scientist to figure out the savings. And before anyone rushes to say "But the electricity costs!?!", go back and read my earlier responses on that. A little over a buck for a full charge.

some of those probably have extended warranties on them

I think that is the stumbling block for most ppl...it does not add up on the gas savings.

That Volt I listed above is at a GM dealer and they offer extended warranties as well.

And I'm tired of repeating the math on the very real gas savings over and over and over again. Here it is simplified, based on the Volt running the battery to empty and then using all it's fuel, and on the last line someone who can complete their entire drive on electricity alone, never using any gas whatsoever:

Chevy Volt total range, battery & 35L tank = 610K. Total cost to empty = $36.50 = $0.059 Cents Per Kilometer
Honda Civic total range, 49L tank = 650K. Total cost to empty = $49.00 - $0.075 Cents Per Kilometer (23.88% more)
Chevy Volt running on electricity alone based using the entire ~50K electric range = $1.00 = $0.02 Cents Per Kilometer

What is the life on a Volt with 72k?

Here's a 2012 that just passed 300,000 miles (482,000K) and is still going strong, with a lifetime average of 59MPG combined (3.98L/100K combined). And no battery degradation either before anyone brings that up.

In other words, I'm not worried about longevity. As I've said several times, we drive our vehicles into the ground when we buy them so I couldn't care less about residual or resale value.

Exactly. Too many people blah blah, Honda is better, 3 seconds to plug in is too much work, Hybrid is way better despite the fact they cost way more than a Volt, Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda...I'd rather stand in a snowstorm for 4 or 5 minutes buying gas every 4 or 5 days than spend 3 seconds plugging in a cord, Honda Honda Honda, EV's suck, Volt sucks, Honda Honda, plugging in is too much work, Hybrid, Honda Honda

I condensed your feelings into a Coles Notes version for everyone.

I'm surprised you're not too embarrassed to come back to this thread after the number of times you've posted FUD that was blown out of the water with facts.

 

[-D-]

Personally I never understood why the Volt never really caught on. The Prius is like the Volt also...right?...that has it's own cult following it seems, lol
Maybe if it said FIAT or BMW or SMART...branding issue.

 

[SunnY S]

Personally I never understood why the Volt never really caught on. The Prius is like the Volt also...right?...that has it's own cult following it seems, lol
Maybe if it said FIAT or BMW or SMART...branding issue.

Because you don't have to plug in a Prius....

 

[-D-]

Because you don't have to plug in a Prius....

Maybe these EV cars need wireless charging pads like they have for phones now...drive up and park, car charges, no plugs required.

Not sure the effects of wireless charging has on humans and animals.

 

[SunnY S]

Maybe these EV cars need wireless charging pads like they have for phones now...drive up and park, car charges, no plugs required.

Not sure the effects of wireless charging has on humans and animals.

yup I mentioned this earlier in this thread, that would be breakthrough!

 

[blackcamaro]

Okay so now a volt with 130,000km is the comparable, price goes down on the civics as mileage goes up also.

Anyways you would be in the area of $4500 difference on the purchase price before tax and interest charges on it if financing. Assuming your math is right on the cost per km and I have no reason to think it's wrong let's look at it.

Say life gets in the way sometimes and you don't always have a full charge all the time let's call the volt at .03 cents per km.

$4500/.03= 150,000
So yes after 150,000km your original investment is paid off and you now get to start enjoying the benefits. So to say the volt is the clear cut cheaper mode of transportation and to say spending similar amounts of money at time of purchase is incorrect.

Tried and true affordable driving? Cheap Japanese car still gets my vote.

It doesn't mean the volt is a bad buy or should be passed over entirely but it isn't even close to the point where everyone should run out and grab one. Clearly shown by the lack of them on the road.

edit.
I'm wrong. I should of did the difference at .045 per km
4500/.045= 100,000
So 100,000km until the difference in initial cost is matched by the fuel saving.

 

[SunnY S]

I'm surprised you're not too embarrassed to come back to this thread after the number of times you've posted FUD that was blown out of the water with facts.

Are you kidding? I was away for a few days and missed this thread and participate in every car thread.

NO embarrassment here, its just common knowledge that non plug in Hybrids are a better choice for the moment.

The market has spoken, electric cars haven't really taken off, have they? yet more and more automakers offer hybrids with an eye on electric for the future......hmmmmmm.

 

[JamJam]

TL,DR this thread but did do a quick scan... What about the BMW i3?
My boss bought one for his wife and they love it.... After all the rebates etc it came out $30-35k (hers was fully loaded of course)
And apparently (this is what my boss told me so please check it out for yourself) as part of the deal, if you are going to go on a long road trip you can drive into any BMW dealer with you i3 and they will give you a regular gas powered BMW for your trip

 

[GreyGhost]

And apparently (this is what my boss told me so please check it out for yourself) as part of the deal, if you are going to go on a long road trip you can drive into any BMW dealer with you i3 and they will give you a regular gas powered BMW for your trip

Haha, i3 was discussed. It's very far from good. I would take a volt over an i3 in an instant.

If the trade in is true, that is a great idea. Buy the i3, leave it at the dealer while you drive a good car for 3 years and then trade in your 0 mile i3.

 

[nakkers]

PP.

You have shared some great information and I'm intrigued.

Not to argue but, I'm curious about battery degradation. I know you said not to bring it up but, everyone has a car or bike that has a battery or cell phone or other battery power device that requires charging and the performance does become affected over time.

Maybe it's the size of the battery(ies)?

Is there more than a couple of long mileage examples that demonstrate long life with little to no affect on range or needing replacement?

What is the average range of a Volt including the use of petro?

Are most folks keeping their one way commute within a certain range?

It's all kinda moot to me at this point really. The wife has a new Kia and my vehicle is company provided so, I won't be in the market for a while.

I used to be a bit of a snob when it comes to vehicles. Hate the whole appliance approach that makers are taking with the main stream offerings.

But a lot of vehicles offer excellent cabin quiet, blue tooth, stereo, heated everything and overall comfort, that maybe an EV will end up in the drive way one day. Lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Snobike Mike]

Fine, here's a 2012 Volt, moderately optioned out (leather, bluetooth, steering wheel radio controls, heated seats, even some nice aftermarket alloys) for under $14,000.

http://www.ontariomotorsales.com/used/Chevrolet[/quote] So have you bought the thing yet?

 

[GreyGhost]

Not to argue but, I'm curious about battery degradation. I know you said not to bring it up but, everyone has a car or bike that has a battery or cell phone or other battery power device that requires charging and the performance does become affected over time.
k

A lot of it will be due to the way batteries are managed when used in large banks in cars. They only use a percentage of the capacity, something like the battery always oscillates between 30% and 90% charge and the car won't let you exceed those limits ever. Also, the thermal management is hardcore (eg. if the battery is too hot is limits the current in/out or if the battery gets too cold they self heat to protect the batteries). Obviously these cost you usable capacity but greatly extend the life.

Typical car batteries are allowed to be drained to 0% occasionally, most drop well below zero degrees many days a year and the charging has no brains, it just hammers electrons at the battery. Cell phones have obvious space and size limitations and choose usable capacity over battery lifespan.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Personally I never understood why the Volt never really caught on.

I'm not sure "never caught on" is a valid term. It's always in the top ranked EV sales figures, and there's over 100,000 of them on the road. Plug in EV's in general are still admittedly a niche so you're not going to see Hybrid like sales figures in the short term that match traditional ICE cars, or even Hybrids, but the rewards for those who take the leap can be huge...again, as per my last response. Those numbers cannot be debated.

So 100,000km until the difference in initial cost is matched by the fuel saving.

We will keep it for at least 5 years, perhaps more if it's still doing it's thing.

So it takes a year to reach break even. I'm Ok with that, we are laughing for at least 4 more years.

PP.

You have shared some great information and I'm intrigued.

Not to argue but, I'm curious about battery degradation. I know you said not to bring it up but, everyone has a car or bike that has a battery or cell phone or other battery power device that requires charging and the performance does become affected over time.

I addressed that in my earlier response above. The 450,000KM Volt is still running on original batteries with no degradation.

The GM engineers programmed the car to only use 60% of the battery capacity which has led to this level of reliability - deep discharging is what has proven to be a killer for these battery packs. A lot of the Hybrids (*cough*, Honda) that were not so forward thinking with their battery packs are not faring anywhere near as well with their reliability.

So have you bought the thing yet?

See first post. Not really (originally) in the cards until next year...although the more I crunch the numbers there more the math works out in favor of moving earlier on that, particularly since my wife had a meeting with upper level management today and they are "extremely interested" in the environmental initiative aspect of installing EV chargers at the head office where she works.

So, her commute costs would go from the current $17 per day in gas, to $1.10 in electricity instead.

I don't think that there's any member here that, if an EV worked out for them in this way, could discount a potential savings of basically $16 a day.

That's $330 every month saved.

Even after the monthly payment we are still up over $100 every month on just the commute, not including the weekend running around etc etc.

So the puzzle pieces are falling into place earlier than expected, perhaps. We may go look at the one I posted earlier on Saturday. My wife likes the funky interior.

 

[fastar1]

Personally I never understood why the Volt never really caught on. The Prius is like the Volt also...right?...that has it's own cult following it seems, lol
Maybe if it said FIAT or BMW or SMART...branding issue.

Sunny approved:

 

[Brian P]

The original Volt probably suffered in sales from the skepticism that a lot of people had at the time about hybrids and EVs in general (and still do, as evidenced by this thread). The plastic-fantastic interior probably didn't help, I'm not a fan of it. And, of course you get the inevitable GM haters, and the people who only buy the cheapest new vehicle and don't look at lifetime operating costs, and there will certainly be people who don't have any place to plug one in ... that's legit, the others are excuses. The Volt has proven to have a very good reliability rating - skip the haters; they're wrong. The Gen 2 Volt fixes the interior (and I like the exterior styling a lot more). And it has better performance (although the gen 1 Volt drives very well) and a longer EV-only range and it uses less fuel after the EV range is spent.

Given the choice between a Prius and a Volt, I'd take the Volt in a second. It drives better and it looks better. I've driven Priuses and I despise them. The new one supposedly has a better chassis ... but they broke the styling when they fixed the suspension. Honda has such a terrible record with batteries in their hybrids that they are not in the running. GM did their homework ... Honda did not.

BTW I saw a Bolt on the road in the Toronto area a couple days ago. I thought they weren't for sale in this area yet, but it had an Ontario plate on it.