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[Delboy]

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Theft is what is charged by the triopoly for shoddy content.

Next you're going to tell me that descrambling the American satellite tv signals is theft too. You know, the signals that are broadcast into our homes but are illegal to pay to subscribe to.

Theft would be taking something from someone depriving them of that said good. If I took the hard drive that the original content was on depriving you of selling that content to someone else then that is theft, if I copy the content to watch on my own you've hardly been deprived of anything.

It always cracks me up when people keep paying for something that they consider "shoddy". The answer is simple. Call Rogers or Bell and cancel. Rogers are not holding a gun to your head.

People always assume that content costs nothing. Let me give you an example. We produce a lot of action sports, X-Games, etc.

It costs a lot of money and is a complex process. The X-Games Organisers are paid for the rights, athletes are paid for their time, cameras and crews are hired, product equipment and trucks are required, post production houses need to be engaged, it has to be marketed, distribution rights need to be secured with people like CBS sports. Google what a producer actually does and it will suprize you, people tend to see just a bunch of names floating by in the credits

All this costs a lot of money. Where does it come from?

2 Sources, private individual capital (e.g. Tony Hawk, Ranjit Siva) and investment funds. Banks also fund production but for Hollywood/Bollywood Blockbusters but not for what we do.

The largest investors in content are organisations like CalSTRS (Teachers Pension Plan). Its reasonable to assume they get a return on their investment If these people don't see any return, guess what, they stop lending money and no more content.

We take an upfront fee to cover production costs (Crews, Production Equipment, Post Production) but all our profit is made on residuals (money that comes from distribution), so if you are stealing content by copying it for your own use then yes, we do not get paid and you are depriving my employees and other hard working people who are investing their savings and pensions.

So assume we can't make money, guess what. That's 87 people out of work, 22 of them are in Toronto.

 

[GateKeeper]

Yup, you are right....

And it's too bad the majority of the populace does not tell Bell and Rogers and the rest to bugger off......

I'd like to see their reaction then......

I have called and ******* and told them I would cancel, you know what they said,,,,,,nothing, nor did they give a crap......cause it's only me....

but as I said too bad we can't get the masses to do it, and all at once.....


.



87 people out of work....LOL,,,,,GM, Chrysler, etc let more than that go, how many other small places close on a daily basis, that leave more than that out of work.....

 

[Delboy]

You might be right - but they've been saying this since 79 when cband home-based satellite dishes started to become popular (and even before that when pirate cable boxes first appeared). One distribution method might get shut down, another will spring right back up. Remember the wave of FTA shutdowns that took place only a decade ago? Sure, that shut down the ease of pirating live satellite tv, but it didn't stop it. That's why people have moved to streaming addons and IPTV for now, cause it's so easy at the moment. If Cisco or someone else implements something like that (they are testing something like that in Europe right now aren't they?) the masses will slowly switch to some other method.

All it would take to stop/end piracy is to provide FAIR PRICING to consumers; the mass of pirates would move to legal paid subscriptions, like people have been saying forever.

Al Gore in 1988 (when they first started seriously trying to scramble signals) talking about satellite piracy and "the evil cable companies" and the need for fair pricing for programming:

[video=youtube;jCzqybLOHes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCzqybLOHes[/video]

The Cisco solution is not about shutting down pirates, its about ruining your experience. Imagine watching the first half of a MotoGP race Marquez is about to catch Rossi and pass him and the screen goes black. Its real-time enforcement. Yes, the can get their IRD reauthorized but its too late, at least for you to see the end of the race.

 

[Xhumeka]

The Cisco solution is not about shutting down pirates, its about ruining your experience.

now that's just semantics, isn't it the same thing?? I'd say the only reason they are trying to ruin your experience is because they want you shut down.

I was reading about this the other day, what they are about to do in Europe... wonder if it's the same type of technology:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...virgin-media-bt-talktalk-piracy-a7622381.html

 

[CruisnGrrl]

I haven't subscribed to cable or satellite in my life. Had it for free when I worked for a cable company, didn't own a TV. Had basic TV for free when I had cable internet, and another place included everything but the premium channels in the rent (they didn't want people putting up satellite dishes) I was given a TV so I hooked it up but rarely watched. Had a VCR to watch movies and as long as rental rates or films were reasonably priced they got rented/purchased. That is the key point though, reasonably priced. Remember when companies like cineplex were looking at bankruptcy because no one was watching movies in the theatres due to unreasonable prices. I remember looking at $18 per ticket to watch a 90 minute movie on a screen the size of my bedroom wall.

People are figuring out that cable/satellite aren't required and there are other content providers that are out there that are more reasonable.
I have hundreds of DVDs that I never paid full price for because honestly most of the content out there isn't worth the high price tag. and it's not like things like media are a limited production. you can make as many copies as you can broadcast/stream. Look at Trent Reznor, when he found out how his record company was ripping off his fans he told his fans that they should steal his music. he then went and started selling his music direct to his fans where they got to set the price of what they paid for a digital download of his music, he made a heck of a lot more that way, sure some people gave him a dollar or two for the entire album but plenty gave more and the distribution costs were significantly cheaper than pressing discs (cheap) and sending them out through the supply chain (not so cheap).

Plenty of companies are discovering cable and satellite tv isn't the way to go, the people getting rich there are the cable and satellite companies.

As for rogers/bell/shaw holding a gun to their customers heads, maybe not but I worked for the cable company I remember customers that would go with out food or telephone to keep their 20 to 30 channel cable subscription. I didn't understand it, many had kids, maybe it was cheaper than paying a babysitter..

 

[nfq]

Netflix/Amazon /Hulu etc is proof that if you offer what people want for a price, they'll subscribe.

A shakeup is coming.

 

[-D-]

The Cisco solution is not about shutting down pirates, its about ruining your experience. Imagine watching the first half of a MotoGP race Marquez is about to catch Rossi and pass him and the screen goes black. Its real-time enforcement. Yes, the can get their IRD reauthorized but its too late, at least for you to see the end of the race.

Ok, and the workaround for that is to watch the race a few hours later.
Most ppl will watch at their convenience. Knowing who won is a minor thing because you want to see the drama of the race to see how they won.

As mentioned before, they have been trying to stop piracy for how long now.
In fact it was the music industry that created the MP3 format to sell in "vending machines" then cancelled the idea.

*If someone makes a copy of the original, that is theft to me. You benefited from something that did NOT belong to you*

 

[Clem]

now that's just semantics, isn't it the same thing?? I'd say the only reason they are trying to ruin your experience is because they want you shut down.

I was reading about this the other day, what they are about to do in Europe... wonder if it's the same type of technology:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...virgin-media-bt-talktalk-piracy-a7622381.html

I work for one of the companies already mentioned on this thread and its our technology that is being deployed at 2 of service providers mentioned in that article.

Its hard to lock content down through Conditional Access or DRM. There is always another hack that allows the pirates to spring up again, but that methodology (IMHO) has always been the wrong approach.

In reality, how long does a pirate stream for a Soccer match have to be down - 90 Minutes? Or F1 race. No race may exceed 2 hours. All you have to do is take the stream down for that length of time. It doesn't have to be permanent. This is (at the risk of understating things) relatively easy and can be done in real time.

People are already beginning to think of alternate sales and marketing use cases built around this. Perhaps the service provider allows the viewer to see the first half of an F1 race, but then substitutes a slate saying if you want to watch F1 in its entirety please call this 0-800 number to subscribe to the official service. Or how about allowing the stream to continue in its entirety but insert an ad every 60 or 90 seconds, again, if they want ad free they can be re-directed to subscribe

This ad model is already implemented by Google, interestingly enough through technology the acquired from a Toronto company. If pirated content is put on YouTube the rights holder has the option to take it down or monetize it through targeted ads.

My view is that you want to let the stream go to as many people as possible, just as long as you can monetize it. The ad revenue goes back to the service provider that is paying for the rights so in effect they are making more as its revenue they would not have had in the first place.

 

[-D-]

Also, good luck with that futile experiment of locking it down.
You have God knows how many hackers in India, China, and Russia alone... close to 3 BILLION people...how many hackers you think are in that group.
How many kids would love to crack this stuff for fun?

btw it was a father and son that cracked the security to allow ppl to copy DVD content.
Story goes something like this...they were working with Linux and asked the RIA for an app to allow them to play cd's/dvd's in Linux.
RIA told them to beat it...so they did...and viola found a way to crack the security...from their basement.

The computing power and ease of use to communicate as a group is ubiquitous today.

 

[Clem]

Ok, and the workaround for that is to watch the race a few hours later.
Most ppl will watch at their convenience. Knowing who won is a minor thing because you want to see the drama of the race to see how they won.

As mentioned before, they have been trying to stop piracy for how long now.
In fact it was the music industry that created the MP3 format to sell in "vending machines" then cancelled the idea.

*If someone makes a copy of the original, that is theft to me. You benefited from something that did NOT belong to you*

Again, provided that content is streamed, we can apply the same techniques. "Catch-up" type content is much easier to monitize in many ways. By re-directing manifest requests back to the original rights holder we can ad the heck out of that stream, generating ad revenue the service provider would never have had, but the distribution of the actual content fragments go through the pirates CDN, delivery is costing the service provider $0.

I believe its a win-win.

So is this model in place today and does it work. The answer is Yes and Yes. There are 2 large "Retailer Aggregators" of content, one in Burbank and one in San Diego. They distribute catch-up content for all the major networks, but they re-monetize the 14 minutes of National Ads from their central facility, regardless if i'm the primary recipient of that content or its being re-streamed to me.

I believe its key to get as many eyeballs on that content as possible as long as someone is paying

Anyway, sorry for the shameless product pitch

 

[Clem]

Also, good luck with that futile experiment of locking it down.
You have God knows how many hackers in India, China, and Russia alone... close to 3 BILLION people...how many hackers you think are in that group.
How many kids would love to crack this stuff for fun?

btw it was a father and son that cracked the security to allow ppl to copy DVD content.
Story goes something like this...they were working with Linux and asked the RIA for an app to allow them to play cd's/dvd's in Linux.
RIA told them to beat it...so they did...and viola found a way to crack the security...from their basement.

The computing power and ease of use to communicate as a group is ubiquitous today.

You need to go and read up on how Adaptive Bitrate works. It's not video streaming. I think that was the point that someone was trying to make on the thread already. There is no direct connection between the player and broadcast tower, operator QAM, or Flash Streaming Server. Everything is a reverse proxy model that's indexed by a manifest, thus on operator can substitute any fragments they want, even for content not being delivered from their own network.

But hey, since you seem to know better that the technical experts at the DASH-IF, SVA, Cisco R&D, Bell Labs, etc., just pm me the link when you have it up and running

 

[Delboy]

Again, provided that content is streamed, we can apply the same techniques. "Catch-up" type content is much easier to monitize in many ways. By re-directing manifest requests back to the original rights holder we can ad the heck out of that stream, generating ad revenue the service provider would never have had, but the distribution of the actual content fragments go through the pirates CDN, delivery is costing the service provider $0.

I believe its a win-win.

So is this model in place today and does it work. The answer is Yes and Yes. There are 2 large "Retailer Aggregators" of content, one in Burbank and one in San Diego. They distribute catch-up content for all the major networks, but they re-monetize the 14 minutes of National Ads from their central facility, regardless if i'm the primary recipient of that content or its being re-streamed to me.

I believe its key to get as many eyeballs on that content as possible as long as someone is paying

Anyway, sorry for the shameless product pitch

OK. So now I know who you work for We are working with the group in Building 4 on Tasman Drive

Its only UK wide at the moment, right?

 

[Clem]

OK. So now I know who you work for We are working with the group in Building 4 on Tasman Drive

Its only UK wide at the moment, right?

Yup, UK only. They are a great bunch of guys, most of them are originally from Mississauga

 

[CruisnGrrl]

stories like netflix are proof that those willing to pay a reasonable price for content will pay a reasonable price. those not willing to pay a reasonable price will either go with out or find it some other way, you weren't going to get their money anyways.

*If someone makes a copy of the original, that is theft to me. You benefited from something that did NOT belong to you*

So if I see a picture you drew and like it if i draw the same picture or take a photo and print it out that is theft?

 

[Xhumeka]

I work for one of the companies already mentioned on this thread and its our technology that is being deployed at 2 of service providers mentioned in that article.

Very interesting stuff... but that article mentioned that the only providers so far that must comply are Sky, BT, Virgin Media and TalkTalk; I assume that this means the "source" that is being referred to is the source of your internet connection, and not the source of the pirated traffic? How do encrypted VPNs play into the mix?

 

[Clem]

Very interesting stuff... but that article mentioned that the only providers so far that must comply are Sky, BT, Virgin Media and TalkTalk; I assume that this means the "source" that is being referred to is the source of your internet connection, and not the source of the pirated traffic? How do encrypted VPNs play into the mix?

Yes, those are the 4 that are currently taking part. I don't want to go too deep as there is a lot of secret sauce but...

Ideally you would shut it down at the source. if I'm a customer in the UK and I'm restreaming that content, the content itself is uniquely associated with both the operator and is tagged or marked with a UUID that is linked to my account. Thus when a pirate stream is discovered on the internet the system knows the operator, and the user UUID - the system knows nothing about the end user because of privacy - but can call out to the operators access system and tell it to shutdown access for the user associated with UUID 12345..... or whatever the number is. Now I can phone up and ***** and complain and get connected again but that's going to take a while

Restreaming from outside the UK it becomes more difficult because the likes of Comcast and Telstra will buy in, but China Cable Networks probably could care less. The thing is that the content is still uniquely identified for each operator so when content is requested from the re-streamer in China, and as its being ingested into the caching infrastructure in the UK, its identified as China Cable content, and the client will either be returned a 404 - "Not Found" or they may still get the content but certain fragments can be replaced with actual ad content. All M3U8 requests are redirected to a manifest proxy so its very easy to shove an ad in.

Ultimately it will get much easier. Programmers and Broadcasters are moving off satellite and it will all be Glass to Glass IP. The nice thing about that is that the origin for the caching infrastructure that's now at the operator moves to the broadcast center or even the track. Now every Operator or Affiliate gets a unique stream from the origin, and since the programmer can now serve up all the manifests, the content can be uniquely marked through the manifest, per user without ever having to touch the content again. The programmer can choose to shutdown the entire feed to that operator, or simply return a 404 to the offending customer when they ask for a manifest. Since its all done at the manifest or video level the IP address is largely irrelevant, although you could have a quick look at the X-Forwarded-For field in the header as a quick and dirty way to detect someone using a proxy.

I don't know if this makes sense or not.

Fox are actually trailing this for all their sports channels in the US at the moment, unfortunate its with our competitor

 

[ZX600]

I put Rogers/Bell supporters right up there with Trump Supporters #pigs

 

[-D-]

stories like netflix are proof that those willing to pay a reasonable price for content will pay a reasonable price. those not willing to pay a reasonable price will either go with out or find it some other way, you weren't going to get their money anyways.


So if I see a picture you drew and like it if i draw the same picture or take a photo and print it out that is theft?

uhm you have now deflected from your original scenario of copying from a hard drive

We have laws that govern certain types of things and some things we do not enforce (practicality) e.g. everyone that sings Happy Birthday has infringed on the copyright.
I think you could be on the hook if you copied someone's "art" then displayed it and other ppl went to your venue to see the copy then the creator could sue you for loss of income.

Did you know the Pizza Pizza orange/red color is TM?
Should a company be able to OWN a color?

 

[ZX600]

e.g. everyone that sings Happy Birthday has infringed on the copyright.

That is no longer the case since last year

 

[-D-]

That is no longer the case since last year

But IT WAS THE CASE and for how long?
Is that because the copyright expiration kicked in?
Kinda the same way patents do on brand name drugs allowing generics to be made.

One could make the argument that back in the day, if your satellite signals crossed into my property then you need to pay me for it or I do what I want with it since it's on my property illegally therefore erecting a dish in my yard and collecting signals on my property (and not reselling it) seems to be a legit argument to use the signal for free.

If someone is streaming movies (paid for created media)...(not free use media) then that can/should be considered stealing.
One is actively going out to a site and pulling in the content and using a device to decode and display it...see how my satellite dish argument makes sense (to me at least) compared to this scenario which is theft because one has to actively go get the product and bring it into/onto your property.

We have a legal system that recognizes and protects intellectual property therefore copying someone's photo/art without written consent is illegal.

I think the law allows a grey area for people to snap a photo and display it in their home for personal use...to avoid a bunch of court cases over "trivial" item...not trivial when you crossing into big $$$ art.

If you take a photo of art/picture then you go to a color printer and printout a nice large replica and hang it on your wall...I think that is a form of theft also from the artist because you did not buy a reproduction from the artist, you went and made your own based on their creation.

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