awyala
Guest
So explain the wars of the last 100 years. What enabled them?
And the award for Troll of the Year goes to.... *drum roll*
- Thread starter Roasted
- Start date
So explain the wars of the last 100 years. What enabled them?
awyala
Guest
I concede to your impeccable logic
awyala while I do not agree with everything you have said I must say you have raised some good points and provoked some deeper internal thought via some very well written posts on this subject.
just a few....not all wars but major losses of life...
Vietnam...communism...a religion according to a strict definition of the term. Expand that to the cold war.
The crusades-Islam/christianity (yes I dug back for this one)
The troubles in Northern Ireland-catholicism/protestantism
National Socialism can also be thought of as a religion again in the true sense of the word...that plays a part in world theatre.
Various skirmishes in the middle east are between factions of the same religion even, sunni vs shia etc.
The current big middle east crisis is zionism vs islam...where zionism is an ideology of the more fundamental jews AND fundamental christians (who feel the need to see the "chosen people" return to Israel before the second coming of Jesus can occur after everyone gets wiped out).
The "my invisible friend is more powerful than your invisible friend" line is pretty powerful at times. Religion may have it's beneficial side but deep down it's often an enabler for the more violent side of human nature.
Wars aren't about religion - Religion is a tool with which to control populations and get people to fight... its easy to control a believer and convince them to fight for a "cause". The true reason for wars is always the same: power, wealth, greed, fight for resources - historically the battle has always been about land, now that those demarcations have for the most part been made - its about other resources - water, oil, control of weapons, control of economy, etc.
Sad that people are being killed over some stupid youtube video.
Sad that people are being killed over some stupid youtube video.
Last edited:
Freak
Well-known member
Brother,
Which extremist ever called for converting everyone to Islam, not even Al-Qaeda says that. I know every extremist group you can think of or search on the internet, most likely i have had tea with them, no one calls for converting everyone to Islam. Islam let Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists etc etc live in their territories for hundreds of years. They were never forced to convert to Islam, which is why you see Copts in Egypt in the millions, Hindus in India, Christians and Jews in Syria, Morocco, Lebanon, Palestine, Ethiopia, Iran, Yemen etc. Had Muslims wanted they could have done what Ezebella and Ferdinand did in Spain.
Sorry, but what the **** do you know about Coptics in Egypt?
I was just summarizing Awyala's post. He said Sharia's goal is to conquer the world. Read the post I quoted.
For the record, I for the most part, do not have the patience to debate politics/religion online . Awyala brought up some interesting points and explained why Islam is so against artistic portrayal's of Islamic God and prophets which was enlightening. He also explained the middle-eatern view of "The West" (which it seems to me; is a ******** umbrella term without a real definition). All this is interesting but at the end of the day, people are still dying over a stupid, low budget clip, that was made by a single dude for probably a few thousand dollars (there is no way that cost 5,000,000 as some reported) and none of these "explanations" justify that so my opinion stays largely unchanged.
Could the US government have issued a statement saying they condemn the video? Sure. It would have probably curbed at least SOME of the violence. Why haven't they? Is this politically motivated? Most likely yes. Maybe this wasn't brought to the US attention until AFTER the first attack on the US Consulate. If the US were to issue a statement after this, perhaps they would appear weak to their own people? I can only speculate. Was the video purely a political move to start a conflict with Israel? Entirely possible.
HOWEVER, at the end of the day, it is NOT the job of the US authorities to police the internet about some Muslim propaganda on youtube Why should they care? The very fact that we are having this debate over such a stupid video proof that the world is ****ed up!
(i kid)
awyala
Guest
"Not that I think a low-budget video speaks for the "west", but I don't think that expecting people to NOT savagely kill, attack, threaten, and vandalize over a Youtube video is "undermining" Islamic theology."
I still agree. That being said, the "moderates" would ask that steps are taken immediately to remove and / or retract that film or its insulting intent. Do you really think that will happen? Likely not, and this is that further insult which adds to the initial one, and which seeks to have Muslims world wide deal with the imposed (selectively applied) notion of "free speech".
A number of concepts such as "free speech" or at least to which extent, and artistic licence, and so on, are viewed by the West as superseding concepts in Islam such as not defaming, lying, or insulting God or a prophet of God. In that Islam or Muslims try to enforce their values, it contradicts Western values, and in doing so, Islamic values in this regard are not tolerated. I suppose the common view point here is that Muslims should just suck it up the way Christians do? In this way, undermining of Islam is the norm. It isn't the reaction that we are really talking about, or perhaps we are? If you condone the insult, then it is the reaction we are talking about. If however you don't condone the insult, then first and foremost the insult should be retracted immediately. But the fact that it is not, then places the focus on the reaction.
May I ask what reaction you would prefer? None I imagine. In which case, would the insults stop? Would the systematic supression of Islamic values (IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES by the West) be abated? Hardly. This reaction is much more than merely the "film's" insult.
Please clarify what reaction you would expect and what response would be proper of any and all involved in its promotion and distribution?
awyala
Guest
Non-Aligned Nations?
awyala
Guest
Thank you. I was thinking of heading over to the US consulate earlier (TOTAL JOKE!!!!), but elected for the lazier dialiog approach. Dialog promotes growth....I also enjoy the process. Feel free to engage any time.
awyala
Guest
Though I agree and disagree with my brother Freak in this instance, in all fairness Islam at its core views itself as the word of God (in the Quran), and the correction to Christianity and Judaism (although the theology of Judaism has little to correct, Islam views the action of the Jews to need rectification, one point in particular is the Jews should have accepted Jesus / Issa as the Messiah). Islam sees itself as Universal and for all Mankind, not just Arabs. In that regard Islam ultimately seeks to be the dominant religion for Mankind.
How it achieves this is where Freak is correct. Islamically (not historically) this should NOT be achieved through aggressive expansion or conquest. Jihad has very specific rules to which it can be initiated and aggression is NOT one of them, nor is political, resource or geographic expansion of the reasons.
Just as Christians have missions, and Westerners have the modern equivelent (NGOs), Islam has Da'wa. Da'wa is propagation of Islam by speaking to non-Muslims or even misguided Muslims about it, basically preaching.
Essentially at its most cuddliest, friendliest, tolerent incarnation; calm dialog and rational debate should be the extent of the war (of ideas). In the end may the best idea / theology win.
Last edited:
I somehow get the impression that all the western condemnation in the world wouldn't make a lick of difference. You're right - this reaction is about more than just a film - the movie is just the spark that lit the fuse.
Last edited:
awyala
Guest
This is an interesting topic, perhaps for us to take off line. I would still argue your definition of the term religion is very very loose, but for the sake of argument I'll let you apply it. In the end I still feel resource acquisition is the key to wars, even in the case of modern Zionism, as Zionism is less a spiritual movement and more a reaction to the Russian Pogroms and European masacres and retribution, less for religious reasons and more for the control of resources in the hands of minorities with loyalties apart from the state.
Don't get me wrong, religion has played a part as a scapegoat and has in the past actually been the sole reason for war, but even underlying that are resources for a particular group of people rather than another.
None the less, a great topic for another time.
Freak
Well-known member
A bit, I know a few of them and Egyptian Muslims as well, i have read about their history etc, know converts who lived and studied in Egypt living with the copts. Yeah they have their issues like the blacks had theirs in US of A some years back and the Irish before them and the natives before them etc. Thinking the world can just turn into this liberal, non-religious, unbiased utopia is nothing but a bad dream people need to wake up from. American of the 1900's wasnt the America of the 1950's and the America of the 1950's isnt the America of today. Being a Black, Homosexual, adulterer, communist, non Christian isnt the same as it was back then. Things changed due to social movements that impacted society. Like the beating of Rodney Marsh brought the elephant in the room to light, where as Blacks were being beaten regularly, the woman who refused to stand for the white lady played a part in the civil rights movements, these things were happening for the longest time but it was the "Apple falling on the head" moment for the society. To expect humans to change and act like the west without giving them the time to evolve socially is simply stupid. Canada passed the Person;s Act in 1929, before A ruling in British common law in 1876 emphasized the problem for Canadian women by saying "Women are persons in matters of pains and penalties, but are not persons in matters of rights and privileges." From the Magna Carta to Habeas corpus to now it wasn't other people shoving down their rules down people;s throats but progress in human thinking that brought about these changes. Egypt has its issues like many other countries, and only social movements can change it.
