And the award for Troll of the Year goes to.... *drum roll*

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AGAVE said:
With all due respect, Muslims pray to a meteorite, it's no wonder a crappy, independent video caused such a hullaballoo, enough said. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone
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Not quite. Originally Mohamed asked the Jews of Arabia to join in the faith and they would all pray to the wailing wall (in Jersulaem). This was rejected (by the Jewish tribes of Arabia outright) and a new "direction" was chosen for the sake of unity (of Muslims). They don't actually pray to the stone, it is for the purpose of unity of the masses, a symbolism. The stone is viewed as the last remaining stones of the first house of worship built to the 1 God of the Abrahamic faiths. This "house" is said to have been built by Abraham and his oldest son Ismail (son of Hagar the Egyptian maid). Ismael / Ishmal is viewd by both Muslims and Jews as the ancestor of the Arabs, where as Isaac, second son of Abraham and son to Sarah (after having become fertile) is believed by the Jews to be the true line of prophetic ancestry (David, Solomon, etc. ending with Jesus). So the house of God Abraham built (The Kaaba - being a representation of of with the black cloth) is a symbolic re-unification with the originator of the 3 faiths, before any split.

Hence they do not pray to a meteor.....and hence why I say a surface understanding of Islam can lead to much misunderstanding and hate from the West.
 
awyala said:
It is for the most part an expansive, "universal" / absolute faith / evangelical faith. The West is correct when they speak of creeping Sharia or Islam's goal to conquer the world. There is no hiding that. But the same is true of Christianity and modern day "universal rights" / darwinian humanism. The West and Islam really are at odds with one another. Despite that there are a lot of commonalities and aspects of Islam a Westerner could like. It really depends on your take on things.

But the point I am making is that the common theme toward Islam is largely anti-Islamic, unless of course the faith can be contained so as to be "moderate" as defined by the West. Again this is the West's attempt to define what level of Islam is acceptable (world wide - not just locally).
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You're saying a whole lot of nothing here. The Islam extremists wants to "conquer the world" and force everyone to convert to Islam. The west doesn't want this but they would be ok with a "moderate" form of Islam that allows everyone to co-exists peacefully? NO ****!!!! No one wants someone else's beliefs shoved down their throats, not just the west! How is this comparable to Humanism or Darwinism? Name one war that Atheist's/Agnostics started over their "beliefs".
 
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RockerGuy said:
They're coming to get u...
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That's why i have guard pigs instead of guard dogs...think about it....
Guard-Pigs-Sign-Barn-J032497.jpg
 
sonnythebull said:
Islam is a religion of peace clearly. And let's all chant the western dumbass mantra " this is a small percentage of Muslims not all Muslims " over and over and over while the Muslims chant " death to all America for a video made by one guy who isn't even American or representing America"
Turn off the Internet And media for one week and let the US and it's true allies clean up the problem once and for all without political correctness interfering
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Appologist say Islam is the religion of peace. But then again in a round about theological way it is, much in the way Bhudism is about the ellimination of suffering through an embrace of suffering! You don't not feel suffering, but rather you understand suffering and in this way end it.

"Peace" in Islam is a theological peace. It isn't about ending war, or ending pain or ending death or ending suffering. These things are part of the test and experience of life. They cannot be avoided. The "Peace" referred to here is an inner peace and understanding. When one "submits" (Islam = submission to the order of the Universe, God, Truth / *Logic), one attains peace, in accepting the order of Truth, be it involving death, pain, anguish, what have you.

Peace is understanding one's place in the Universal Order and submitting to it, willingly, mentally over coming pain and embracing it; mind over matter.

The mantra of Islam is as follows: Fear none other than Allah (God, the Supreme, the Creator), for none can hurt you except Him. In this is the theology that all things stem from the Creator, including the system that you live under...gravity, weak nuclear force, strong nuclear force, electro magnetic force....all the way down to evolved nervous systems (which transmit electrical impulses to the brain which are interpreted as pain). We are all "slaves" of the system we find ourselves in, and through understanding, confirmity, and submission to this system we attain "Peace". We begin to be able to use the system, and become one with it....modern science and technology.

When Muslims believe none can hurt you but Allah, this means don't be mislead and misguided by lies and fear and superstition, but rather pursue truth, and what ever pain you encounter is not a true pain, not a pain to turn you away, but rather a pain that can be mentally over come, a pain that is not to limit one in pursuit of truth, a pain that is part of the universal system and part of one's test.

Once again, a superficial reading of Islam can lead one to believe something incorrect and then accuse Islam of being a lie. I do not apologize for a justified war, and death, and pain (small p). Apologists try to mislead the West by saying Islam is about "peace" (little p). Just as the West will pursue war to impose "universal rights" and cultural supremecy, so too will Islam. Neither are about "peace" (little p).

"Turn off the Internet And media for one week and let the US and it's true allies clean up the problem once and for all without political correctness interfering." Just as you advocate violence as a requesite to Western "Peace" and "peace", you can't fault Islam either can you?

This pain and war is part of life, it is unavoidable, but how does one mentally handle it. When does one kill, die, or suffer for Truth and Peace (big T and P)?

There will never be peace on Earth. It is our condition to battle, endlessly, over any matter. In fact a recent theory suggest the rapid evolution of homo-errectus is due to a culture of extreme self-competition and violence.

Truth and Peace don't need us. We need them, and this is our test. If a false peace is achieved...i.e. through a dictatorship, through oppression this is not Peace, though it may be peace. Little p peace is not a human goal, nor is it an expression of evolution and enlightenment in and of itself. Little p peace means nothing, for it can be achieved through repression and oppression. Islam, nor the West are based on peace. However both claim to seek Truth and Peace.
 
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awyala said:
See my first point. I agree.
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Sorry, had to edit my original post due to a typo, so not sure if you'd agree any more.
 
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Can you do us all a favour clarify exactly what you mean by 'the West'?

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Roasted said:
You're saying a whole lot of nothing here. The the Islam extremists wants to "conquer the world" and force everyone to convert to Islam. The west doesn't want this but they would be ok with a "moderate" form of Islam that allows everyone to co-exists peacefully? NO ****!!!! No one wants someone else's beliefs shoved down their throats, not just the west! How is this comparable to Humanism or Darwinism? Name one war that Atheist's/Agnostics started over their "beliefs".
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WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Korean War, GW1, GW2, American Civil War, American War of Independence, Napoleonic Wars, Opium Wars, the list goes on.

All these wars were post enlightenment and based on the beliefs of the aggressor. None had anything to do with God or religion. Since Athiest / Agnostic views have taken prominence in Western society wars have not decreased, and due to scientice advancement, the death tolls have DRAMATICALLY INCREASED!!!!

To top it off, the West is responsible for the sole most horrendous mass murder of civillians the world has ever known, coincidently the epitomy of scientice advancement also!

Humanism is about the supremecy of the Human species over everything else, including Truth, for it is believed to be something we can comprehend and master as a matter of course. Humanism has led to the belief that those who embrace Human supremecy are better than those humans who have not evolved past supersition and religion, that those lesser humans are in fact not worthy of propogation and are in fact subject to subjegation. See Eugenics and the implications it had in war, politics and societal relations.

Islamic extremists are as potent and prevelent as Western (world conquering) extremists. I see no difference. The West does seek to convert everyone to an ICC / Universal Rights / Western Humanist legal framework, much in the way the colonial West imposed laws, languages and cultures (by force on its colonies / mandates). The West actively seeks and sought world domination, from, as I say and as a small example the Opium Wars in China, to colonizing military bases in Guam, Hawaii, Oil fields in the Mid East, Pipelines in Asia minor, gold and resources in the Americas, Slaves in Africa, maaaaaaaaan the list goes on!!!

If you choose not to see how the West seeks global domination you are a fool. The difference is, you and the West believe they are the correct to do so! That it is their universal right to invade and impose their financial, legal and cultural systems on others (ICC, IMF, World Bank, various NGOs, UN, NATO, puppet regimes, etc etc etc). The West even had an inter-Western (theology) war with itself as Communism was adopted by the traditional (Russia included) East. The world nearly saw its own end due to 2 Western systems battling it out for supremecy!!!!
 
caboose483 said:
Can you do us all a favour clarify exactly what you mean by 'the West'?

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Western cultural history inclusive of Greek rational logic, through Roman Christianity, through Darwinian Enlightenment culture and Politics.

Excluded from the West, has traditionall been Russia and the Middle East, for their brands of Christianity have been considered Eastern and not in the diluted spirit of political regional expansion. Roman Christianity was coopted by a political and pagan philosophy and politics that differed from the Eastern Orthodox Church. Russia / Ukrain for example coverted not based on conquest but rather on a rational evaluation and selection. Russia has also historically and politically been viewed by Western states as "other" and outside Western spheres up to and throughout the 1800s to the Communist revolution when it adopted a Western philosophy, and even then it was viewed as outside of the West proper.

Though the Middle East is not truly an Eastern tradition in that it's roots are similar to the West (Greek logic, Egyptian Pagan culture, Babylonian Laws, Judaic / Christian roots), the "Middle East" has diverged from the "West" around 400 AD, and took a different, though expansionist turn with Islam around 700AD, where a clear theological rift between Western mono-theism and Muslim / Mid Eastern mono-theism developed. Since then the "East" or rather "Gothic" has been largely defined by Western Europe as something other than itself. Ultimately "The West" is a self defined term, by the "West" and has excluded "Eastern Europe" also.

"The West" in Arabic is Al-Maghrib and has always been the term used for Morocco, Algeria, and the Western most parts of the Islamic empire. The term "The West" has not existed until recently in the "Eastern" lexicon.
 
awyala said:
If you choose not to see how the West seeks global domination you are a fool. The difference is, you and the West believe they are the correct to do so!
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Again with the generalizations and assumptions. Sorry bro. I live in Canada. We don't invade anyone nor seek "global domination". If this was the US you MIGHT have an argument. If I'm a "fool" according to you for believing this than so be it. I am perfectly satisfied with a peaceful existance and we've got all the resources we need right here in Canada.
 
If you look at the true definition of religion then you'll see nearly every war has it's roots in a religious ideology context.
 
Roasted said:
Again with the generalizations and assumptions. Sorry bro. I live in Canada. We don't invade anyone nor seek "global domination". If this was the US you MIGHT have an argument. If I'm a "fool" according to you for believing this than so be it. I am perfectly satisfied with a peaceful existance and we've got all the resources we need right here in Canada.
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No Afghans attacked us...we are in Afghanistan killing Afghanis. Canada's stance has changed over the years from what it used to be.
 
caboose483 said:
My theme towards Islam (excluding the extremists) is apathy. I don't care. So please don't try to tell me what I believe or will believe. I think i have a pretty good working understanding of what Islam is all about so o don't feel as though I need to investigate any further.

You should be mindful of terms like 'the West'. Similar to how the only Muslims we seem to see on the news are the extremists, the same logic can be applied to the West. Those who make the most noise about it represent a very small percentage of the population. They don't speak for me.

I would hope that you, being a Muslim that sees this from the other side, would be able to understand my point. I don't lump you in with the crazies who are attacking US embassies, please don't lump me in with those who dislike Islam.

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Apathy aside, I think it cannot be ignored that Islam is also a prostelizing, expansionist, universal, evangelical theology. You (personally) might be apathetic to it now, but you are part of a system which is not and historically has been resistant. When I say "you" I mean it in a general sense, not specifically you the individual. My apology for not being clear in that regard.

In terms of further investigation into Islam, it might be worth further investigation, but then again I cannot speak to the depth of your "working knowledge of Islam". It depends what work you plan to do with that knowledge I suppose. Some knowledge is not so much useful as a tool to an end, but and end of itself. Islam can be both I suppose.

As for being mindful of "the West", yes I agree, there is much good in "The West". Then again, neither I nor Islam has defined the term. It is a self defined term as I explained in another post. "The West" is neither good nor bad, but has elements of both.

I do not lump you in with the crazies either, but I lump us both in with movements and currents bigger than us both, and there are times where we get swept away contrary to our best intentions and efforts, especially when we give in to (and to tie this back to the origins of the thread) lies, propaganda, false truths, agendas, etc.

These agendas and lies, though they may have minimal effect on us, cause cultural momentums that will engulf us whether we like it or not. The "crazies" or those on the edge of crazy, or those too simple to see the larger picture but become enraged when their simple lives / lifestyles are put at risk, are in much larger numbers than you think. After all, how is that Bush mobilized the fighting force that he did?!?!?!

You and I are not above the risks of hysteria, and when the proverbial hits the fan, it will be nearly impossible to sit it out on the sidelines or stop anyone from partaking in the mayhem.
 
jc100 said:
If you look at the true definition of religion then you'll see nearly every war has it's roots in a religious ideology context.
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Every war period has its roots in resrouce acquistion. Don't be foolish to believe the "Enlightment" motto.
 
Roasted said:
Again with the generalizations and assumptions. Sorry bro. I live in Canada. We don't invade anyone nor seek "global domination". If this was the US you MIGHT have an argument. If I'm a "fool" according to you for believing this than so be it. I am perfectly satisfied with a peaceful existance and we've got all the resources we need right here in Canada.
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You live in Canada, as do I, a country built on conquest of a native people and culture by "The West" (Britain, France, Holland, Spain, Portugal and so on). That same culture with which Canada has been and is currently alligned (culturally to the Monarchy, Economically to the US) to for centuries. Our proxy economy is built on conquest, genocide, human rights abuses, slavery, and global wars. Even more so than in the Trudeau years, we have strengthened our alliegence to this same culture under this Conservative wave. We are also culturally allign with geographically distant, but culturally close cultures such as Australia who are equally guilty of the same crimes.

As I say, the West...believes it's actions, expansion, conquest, domination, exploitation is justified to the point of not acknowledging it, despite the myth of "the White Man's Guilt" as evidenced by the aversion to Affirmative Action.
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