Advise on restricting engine power please?

The feedback from Power Commander came in real fast!!!

"[FONT=&quot]The Power Commander alone being only a fuel tuner only, you would not want to try to restrict the power by limiting fuel. This would lean the bike out to a dangerous air fuel ratio for the engine. You would want to safely reduce power output by retarding the ignition timing. This would require the Power Commander Ignition Module accessory. The restricted power maps would need to be custom made on a dyno, as well."
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There....some serious technical advice![/FONT]
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I was with him on the spark plug removal :) The 250 cable, that joke I did not get.
 
Just a thought on the matter. I added a home made rifleman insert (essentially a zip tie), to give a WOT in less rotation of the throttle. This gave a snappy throttle response and a quicker WOT twist by increasing the throttle circumference. Personally I love the mod, buuuuuuuuuuut if I applied the opposit principle, i.e. decreasing the throttle circumference (at the handlebar), this should allow for a full range of throttle movement (instead of restricted movement with a pin / stop), while reducing the actual amount of throttle at the carbs. I wonder if buying a spare OEM throttle for $22, then shaving down the circumference would do the trick. It would be hit or miss to guess what degree of reduction would lead to what hp limitation....but I could shave, then test, then shave somemore until I have muted the throttle response and power delivery. The power delivery is also an expression of the curve or increase in circumference. Theoretically you could have parabolic delivery by having an increasing radius! Not that I want that...I would have to shave the radius down evenly at all points to keep the power delivery linear. So that might be a cheap realistic option.

Anyone else try the rifleman mod? Basically the opposite is my theory.

Probably won't help on the insurance much.
 
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Probably won't help on the insurance much.

Have you looked into insurance for your wife with the bike? A new rider and that machine may not be very cost effective - your concerns over 'taking a loss' could go out the window right quick.
 
Have you looked into insurance for your wife with the bike? A new rider and that machine may not be very cost effective - your concerns over 'taking a loss' could go out the window right quick.

For our age SF would charge $2000/yr. She is very interested in this bike also, which would likely be around $1400/yr

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2...-launch-control-wheelie-control-ride-by-wire/

This may end up being the solution...it comes with 4 power modes + 1 custome mode set by the rider! TC, ABS and all the goodies. I would need to figure if the 5th mode could be quite restricted.

This option may "kill many birds with one stone".

With full ABS, TC, Anti-wheelie, and a muted custom mode, this may prove to be a decent start...even though it is a 675. If she doesn't like it, I would gladly take it....also I would take a bit of a hit on a trade in. But details are yet to be confirmed...even dealers don't know for sure yet.

But yeah, if a 250cc runs about $600 a year, and she opts not to move up, and not really into riding, the 250 does present a better financial option over the course of 3 to 4 years. But then again that solution doesn't really tick all the boxes. I would rather have a bike we can share.

The F3 doesn't really tick the "share" box either as she will undoubtedly love it too much to let me abuse it on the track either!

The F3 looks impressive though...claimed wet weight of 380lbs and said to be the smallest 600 of the class with a counter spinning crank to reduce wheelies....hmmm.

Downsides are dropping the beauty and she wont share it so easily...but this could be ideal for her. Also the more she loves it, the more she will pitch in some cash!
 
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No it didn't go down like that at all, but thanks for the patronizing tone.

I take it you buy all your vehicles and property cash?

Secondly none of us NEED bikes, so get off your high seat with that attitude buddy. Go buy yourself a used 20 year old car with 100k on the clock before you judge on such matters.

I have known people who have quite easily started on 600R's or on Vtwin 1098 Ducatis. I am not hear to judge, some people do fine, while others don't. I personally advocate graduated learning and I am wondering if it is possible to graduate the power of a bike I already have in my stable...there is nothing selfish about that.

I could argue that all you ****** commentators are selfish for putting your lives at risk and not being there for your family after you die on the road next year and I read about you in the papers and all that crap. Seriously guys get off it, you sound like the peanut gallery! I'm approaching this from a technical investigation and you guys just flame on like you invented the combustion engine or something, while offering next to no qualified advice. I'm actually shocked that this comes from dudes with such high post numbers. You just clocking up post counts or something?

You seem to know sooo much and even when someone gives you some sound advice you think you already know the answer or have sent some e-mail to some specialist. So I have to ask what answers are you looking for then? We've all given you our advice and frankly some common sense. Take it all how you want but dont expect all of us to agree with your decision at the same time.

Some of the advice has been quality, yet you choose to "Make" this bike work rather than buying the "right" bike for the rider. I bet the insurance savings alone out weights these ******** options, just for you to keep your track whore option open.

You're missing the point. The bike is for her not for your 3 track days/yr you want to use it for. Take your wants and emotions out of it.

You're so full of **** you actually believe yourself and that might get someone hurt in the process. If you care for her like you claim do the right thing and get a bike that she's comfortable and feels safe on and probably be cheaper in the long run.
 
I am also looking into ABS systems from Continental, which apparently offer anti-rear-wheel-lift. So not only does the ABS prevent lock up, but it prevents stoppies. However there is no word on whether this can be retro fitted and it appears to be highly involved with added firm / software upgrades to the ECU.

But the ideal solution would be an aftermarket, anti rear lift ABS system and a mapped restrictor.....if it is even possible! + an on / off switch!

Most of this stuff is approaching impossible to add with an unlimited recreational budget. It is cheaper to buy a bike with ABS than add ABS to an existing bike. ABS requires the controller, the pump, and the sensors at a minimum as well as all associated plumbing and wiring.
 
You seem to know sooo much and even when someone gives you some sound advice you think you already know the answer or have sent some e-mail to some specialist. So I have to ask what answers are you looking for then? We've all given you our advice and frankly some common sense. Take it all how you want but dont expect all of us to agree with your decision at the same time.

Some of the advice has been quality, yet you choose to "Make" this bike work rather than buying the "right" bike for the rider. I bet the insurance savings alone out weights these ******** options, just for you to keep your track whore option open.

You're missing the point. The bike is for her not for your 3 track days/yr you want to use it for. Take your wants and emotions out of it.

You're so full of **** you actually believe yourself and that might get someone hurt in the process. If you care for her like you claim do the right thing and get a bike that she's comfortable and feels safe on and probably be cheaper in the long run.

1) I know a degree of information...but not nearly enough. Hence why I am seeking advice of people who know more.
2) I sent simultaneous requests for information, in addition to asking on a forum...sounds reasonable when doing research don't you think. It was just amazing the Power Commander responded in under an hour!!!
3) I already know the sound advice of "don't start on a 600R". I started riding once myself, learned a few lessons and know many people who have started on 600R's and 1000R's. I myself feel I would not have done well to start on any sort of R and don't regret my graduated learning curve either. It yet remains to be seen the temperment of my wife and how she takes to a bike over 250cc. Personally I feel she could be quite compitent on a 500 to 600 (60hp) bike. And in this regard yes I probably do know quite a lot about my wife. So don't be offended if I consider and also weigh that advice appropriately. If you look at my initial request, it had nothing to do with asking for financial advice on the matter of financing a bike, nor on the matter of the whole (what bike is appropriate to start on). The advice I requested was quite specific to technical issues about restrictors and if they provide the desired effect.
4) The solution I am looking for is a best fit solution that factors quite a few things into it. My initial option was not to have her ride, as for 10+ years she was never interested. I had no issue at all, having a track bike and another bike. I could just as easily tell her to get her own bike and I have nothing to do with it. Believe me, there are many options on the table. So let's be clear, as the thread title reads...I am not asking you for advice on finance or wife teaching / loving / caring / safety options. The information request is specific to limiting an engine safely to a desired HP output. Since you have no experience in that matter, clearly, why you insist on judging other factors which you have even less experience with I fail to understand. I only offered that information as a reason as to why I was seeking information on that option. If I find the option not viable, and in fact doesn't improve safety conditions with the 10R then you can sleep safe at night trusting I have a degree of common sense to not kill my wife so I can track it 3 times a year. Get real man, you don't need to get into questioning how much I care for her or how selfish I am...that just comes across as some seriously self reighteous crap and sadly very much indicative of a lot of attitudes on the forum.
5) Let's also be clear on what I believe....I don't believe I can have a modifiable track / starter bike because I don't even know if it possible. No one is fooling themselves here....they are just collecting information. I don't know why that principle is so difficult for you to get your head around. You know I am not typing this as I ride on the back of the bike as she speeds us both to our deaths full throttle...I am at home dicussing an issue with like minded riders and exploring possibilities.

So relax your standard opinion is noted. It has merrit, got it, 250cc good, you are an expert and a logical common sense kind of guy that downgraded to a 650...your a biking saint, I got it buddy. You also know next to nothing about restricting a bike yet you love to keep on about the issue. Got it. Noted.
 
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Most of this stuff is approaching impossible to add with an unlimited recreational budget. It is cheaper to buy a bike with ABS than add ABS to an existing bike. ABS requires the controller, the pump, and the sensors at a minimum as well as all associated plumbing and wiring.

I think you might be right. A new 600 with all the safety bells and whistles is not like the 600s of the past.

I mean with slipper clutch, power modes, TC, ABS, Anti-wheelie, much lighter weights....it may just be that a new 600 is the answer to the issue. That is why I am kinda exploring the F3 bike, especially if the 5th custom power mode can be quite reduced. And peak power would be 125hp rather than in the 170s.

Resale value should stay high also, but importantly there probably wont be the need to sell off so many bikes to get to the bike she finally likes. I'll check back with Royal when more info comes in on the power modes and safety features. If the ABS has anti rear wheel lift that would be a huuuuuge bonus also!
 
1) I know a degree of information...but not nearly enough. Hence why I am seeking advice of people who know more.
2) I sent simultaneous requests for information, in addition to asking on a forum...sounds reasonable when doing research don't you think. It was just amazing the Power Commander responded in under an hour!!!
3) I already know the sound advice of "don't start on a 600R". I started riding once myself, learned a few lessons and know many people who have started on 600R's and 1000R's. I myself feel I would not have done well to start on any sort of R and don't regret my graduated learning curve either. It yet remains to be seen the temperment of my wife and how she takes to a bike over 250cc. Personally I feel she could be quite compitent on a 500 to 600 (60hp) bike. And in this regard yes I probably do know quite a lot about my wife. So don't be offended if I consider and also weight that advice appropriately. If you look at my initial request, it had nothing to do with asking for financial advice on the matter of financing a bike, nor on the matter of the whe whole (what bike is appropriate to start on). The advice I requested was quite specific to technical issues about restrictors and if they provide the desired effect.
4) The solution I am looking for is a best fit solution that factors quite a few things into it. My initial option was not to have her ride, as for 10+ years she was never interested. I had no issue at all, having a track bike and another bike. I could just as easily tell her to get her own bike and I have nothing to do with it. Believe me, there are many options on the table. So let's be clear, as the thread title reads...I am not asking you for advice on finance or wife teaching / loving / caring / safety options. The information request is specific to limiting an engine safely to a desired HP output. Since you have no experience in that matter, clearly, why you insist on judging other factors which you have even less experience with I fail to understand. I only offered that information as a reason as to why I was seeking information on that option. If I find the option not viable, and in fact doesn't improve safety conditions with the 10R then you can sleep safe at night trusting I have a degree of common sense to not kill my wife so I can track it 3 times a year. Get real man, you don't need to get into questioning how much I care for her or how selfish I am...that just comes across as some seriously self reighteous crap and sadly very much indicative of a lot of attitudes on the forum.
5) Let's also be clear on what I believe....I don't believe I can have a modifiable track / starter bike because I don't even know if it possible. No one is fooling themselves here....they are just collecting information. I don't know why that principle is so difficult for you to get your head around. You know I am not typing this as I ride on the back of the bike as she speeds us both to our deaths full throttle...I am at home dicussing an issue with like minded riders and exploring possibilities.

So relax your standard opinion is noted. It has merrit, got it, 250cc good, you are an expert and a logical common sense kind of guy that downgraded to a 650...your a biking saint, I got it buddy. You also know next to nothing about restricting a bike yet you love to keep on about the issue. Got it. Noted.

I'm guessing you're a politician or a lawyer? )Actually no need to answer that. I'll save you the page long reply)

Anyway good luck with all that.
 
5'4", about 120lbs.

I would also look at lowering the bike....max is 30mm from what I have found...and softening the suspension, probably to its lower limits.

I think your best bet will be to go for a smaller bike. With all the mod's you're contemplating, it would be impractical. I doubt you would save any money either.

You can only retard the timing so much before the engine runs too roughly. And although it is easy enough to load up different maps you have in your possession, a custom dyno tune will still cost you about $300, the power commander modules are $200-$300 as well.

The insurance for a new rider on a litre bike may be quite high too, at least compared to a sub 600 cc bike.

as a rider with more experience now, you also have to continually remind yourself that your wife who has zero experience does not have the throttle control you've developed, and this lack of control (and not lack of caution) is what tends to get new riders into trouble.

Also, the 10R will have a more race tuned handling set-up. This precision handling, although a delight to more experienced riders (because they have developed a greater sense of finesse in their control) actually becomes more of a detriment to newbies as the "over-responsiveness" tends to make them lose confidence. It's the same reason newb skiers and snowboarders are given softer "less responsive" skis or boards.

As for weight, even a 50 lbs weight difference is significant when dealing with motorcycles. 50 lbs is not exactly light, not for someone who only weighs 120 lbs to being with. Not knowing how strong your wife is, it may be the difference between dropping the bike or not, or being able to pick it up once it's dropped. It's also not just the total weight of the bike you need to consider, but also the distribution. It's been my experience that if the centre of gravity is lower, the bike tends to be more newb friendly.

putting a restrictor on the throttle may seem like the easiest thing to do, and it will definitely limit power. It is my understanding that the bikes owned by FAST riding school are restricted this way for the sake of safety (ie. you can't turn the throttle to full factory wide open). I'm just not certain it will be enough to make up for the other factors I've mentioned above.

And lastly, lowering the bike 30mm and then softening the suspension as much as possible seems like a recipe for bottoming out. If that happens while cornering, it will very likely lead to a crash. It may also lead to damage to the bike, as Draco's Wrath found out the hard way (he has a thread posted about it). Also keep in mind that lowering the motorcycle may void your insurance. It does with TD Primmum.

i'd say bite the bullet and get a ninja 250 for the wife because that would seem like the safest, most practical route.

hope that helps.

btw, that MV Agusta F3 is pretty sweet. I can't believe it is priced at $13,500 for sale in the USA. Having said that, I still don't think a newbie should have that as their first bike.
 
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Skimmed over alot of the opinion posts in here, so excuse me if this is a repeat.

A restrictor of some type is your only real option. You can't do it with fuel and retarding the timing only works so much before you are burning exhaust valves. The bikes that do this OEM have either throttle by wire or secondary butterfly systems to restrict them.
 
I don't remember the guy asking if he should, he asked how can he.... Stop the nanny mentality.

Unless you are planning to give a solution STFU, his wife, their decision, mind your own business.

**** sakes

op, gsxr's have the option you want, modes a, b, c. Mode c is the "rain mode" makes the bike very tamed, maybe a trade?
 
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Busabob had some action packed advice! The lowering the bike causing bottoming out and the void insurance thing is potent advice I must say.

More and more I am liking the F3 option....especially with the added safety features and the modes. I may try a throttle mod and take her to the parking lot just to see how she feels on the 10R, but I think Busa is right about how responsive it is...not sure about the F3 might it might have the same problem also. If she responds well to the SS nature the F3 is starting to look like a good option.

I take your point about custom mapping and a PC. I am looking at a grand there. I didn't mention it earlier because it was a side point, but she pushing for a white bike, so there is another grand in that too! By the time it gets sorted to the way she wants it, safely I would be spending what I may actually lose in a trade in situation.

We looked extensively at the ninja 250 option. Even found one in white. I rode a couple around to test the feel also...to be honest from what I have seen of her on a 250 she can easily handle that. The only real 400 option she was interested in was the ninja 400. Personally I like it a lot, but she isn't keen and prefers a more aggressive race posture.

We were very serious about the 2 stroke Aprilia 125RS before finding out the problem with having them street legal and the seizing issues of a 2 stroke, so we passed on that one.

ZX600 makes a great point about the American price point for the F3 at $13500....I really think that is the way I am leaning.

But that won't be decided until the spring when the dealers get more info. I also expect a delay on shipping those bad boys....as they have been delayed a year already.

So for now I'll try a throttle mod and some suspension settings and take it easy in a parking lot with a lot of pre-take off warnings and education.

I am starting to see that restricting has a certain limit, and could otherwise damage the engine. I am not sure how that UK site manages to restrict any bike to 33bhp, but I imagine also there must be some sort of disclaimer, and they also may be based on the premise that one requiresa a restricted engine for 2 years until one is legally allowed to derestrict it. I mean otherwise why by your sweetheart bike and restrict it in the first place if you don't intend on keeping it past that period. But I am still waiting on their response to my email. So i gather restricting an engine is intended for limited use, and has potential longevity issues associated with it.

I would be curious to hear from anyone who has experience riding a restricted bike, about how it feels, problems, etc.
 
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Got some info back from the UK restrictor kit company:

"The restriction kit will still allow for a smooth linear delivery through the 33bhp. So there is no need to worry. All of our kits are TUV tested, so yes they are tested to reduce the power, but also to ensure the riding dynamics are unchanged and is safe to ride.
With regards to the changing of the power over time, this is not so easy. This is due to it being a mechanical restriction so is unchangable. We are able to offer a separate kit however, which is a 72kW kit (97bhp). So this could be an option to think about in the future."

Sounds worth a try, even just to test it out. Not too much lost in trying it out for myself at least.
 
Got some info back from the UK restrictor kit company:

"The restriction kit will still allow for a smooth linear delivery through the 33bhp. So there is no need to worry. All of our kits are TUV tested, so yes they are tested to reduce the power, but also to ensure the riding dynamics are unchanged and is safe to ride.
With regards to the changing of the power over time, this is not so easy. This is due to it being a mechanical restriction so is unchangable. We are able to offer a separate kit however, which is a 72kW kit (97bhp). So this could be an option to think about in the future."

Sounds worth a try, even just to test it out. Not too much lost in trying it out for myself at least.

do you have a link for this site? I imagine it's done by limiting how much you can twist the throttle.
i know a couple people with the 125 Aprillia and they love it. i don't recall them saying that getting it street legal was an issue either.
 
Too bad you don't have a Gixxer, problem solved.
 

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