Advise on restricting engine power please?

awyala said:
Don't know it if is a crazy idea (yet), I am exploring it as one of many options. I am an advocate for graduated learning, and I am not interested in putting my wife at risk...I am just exploring an option here to see if it is viable. It is not an explored option in Ontario, but is something done in Europe, so there is some merrit to it.
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Op its great that you want your lady riding but not on a bike like that ...thats just crazy unless you dont love her :)
 
i call dibs on the engine, since its most likely gonna end up in a salvage lot anyway
 
awyala said:
This is a modified part or a manufactured part? Any idea if this is made for different bikes, ZX10R in particular? So it seems the power delivery can be altered by the arch of the part itself....interesting option. I imagine the location of the end bit would also limit the peak hp, but I wonder if I could get this part in various restriction levels...this way I could swap them out as she improves and is ready for more power.
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That picture is the way they restrict the bikes in the UK. I guy fromt he UK was taking about it awhile back.
I will see if I can find more info.
As for having different levels to set it to sounds a little overkill, Once she can handle the bikes weight and gets comfortable on it then take it off, give her full power and she should have self control.....if not she shouldn't be riding the bike.
 
rich6969 said:
Op its great that you want your lady riding but not on a bike like that ...thats just crazy unless you dont love her :)
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Listen....aside from generic obvious advice...do you have anything specific about what would make a 1L dangerous, once restricted to 33hp? For example....if you said..."mate the brakes are way too snappy...she will fling herself off. You should seriously look at reducing break fluid pressure." (I am making it up here, as I don't really know how to ease the brakes a little). There are obviously aspects that make a 1L more dangerous than a 250. But what are they specifically and how can they be mitigated is my question.

I could also never let my wife ever touch a bike, or ever take her as a passenger also. So the question here is not about eliminating all risk all together...it is about fully appreciating the risk and mitigating it.

Your advice is not of much help.

Try and think of the downsides of the 1L and a possible solution.

We already addressed weight and the issue of dropping the bike. The difference between the 10R and a 250cc is only 55lbs. And I don't care if she drops it...consider it my beater bike...hell I already dropped it once on track...none of that is an issue for me. My issue is (relative) safety...and by relative I mean...the bike in any capacity form is a risk, we both understand that part.

So...now I ask you...what do you find is the main difference between a 250 and a 1L and how would you suggest altering the 1L's behavior to match the 250 while providing a relatively quick alteration option if I wish to take it to the track 2 or 3 times a year. I don't mind tinkering for 2 hrs to get it back up to full spec and 2 hrs to restrict it back down afterwards. It won't be a daily thing.
 
ok Op why not tell us more about you wife...height ? how much does she weight?...you said she has No exp ?
 
jeffjones said:
That picture is the way they restrict the bikes in the UK. I guy fromt he UK was taking about it awhile back.
I will see if I can find more info.
As for having different levels to set it to sounds a little overkill, Once she can handle the bikes weight and gets comfortable on it then take it off, give her full power and she should have self control.....if not she shouldn't be riding the bike.
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Reasonable.

For me I found the big jump when I switched from 600cc (commuter: FZ600, SV650S) up to a 6R. That was an enomous leap in power and bike performance. The 1L was actually markedly tamer than a 6R due to the sluggish performence below 5k rpm. The 6R was snappy around 60 to 70kph in street riding. But the 10R doesn't roll on hard until around 90 to 100pkh (in 1st). That was one reason why I was also looking for intermediate hp restrictors, so not just to jump from 33 to 175hp. The main performance difference between a 1LR and a 600R is the top range beyond 200kph. So I know it sounds insane to start on a 1L, but I find starting on a 600R to be even worse...because of how quickly the power comes on in everyday riding situations.

Once she can get to 120hp, anything above would not be a problem....it is getting from 33hp to 120hp that is the trick...I think.
 
awyala said:
Listen....aside from generic obvious advice...do you have anything specific about what would make a 1L dangerous, once restricted to 33hp? For example....if you said..."mate the brakes are way too snappy...she will fling herself off. You should seriously look at reducing break fluid pressure." (I am making it up here, as I don't really know how to ease the brakes a little). There are obviously aspects that make a 1L more dangerous than a 250. But what are they specifically and how can they be mitigated is my question.

I could also never let my wife ever touch a bike, or ever take her as a passenger also. So the question here is not about eliminating all risk all together...it is about fully appreciating the risk and mitigating it.

Your advice is not of much help.

Try and think of the downsides of the 1L and a possible solution.

We already addressed weight and the issue of dropping the bike. The difference between the 10R and a 250cc is only 55lbs. And I don't care if she drops it...consider it my beater bike...hell I already dropped it once on track...none of that is an issue for me. My issue is (relative) safety...and by relative I mean...the bike in any capacity form is a risk, we both understand that part.

So...now I ask you...what do you find is the main difference between a 250 and a 1L and how would you suggest altering the 1L's behavior to match the 250 while providing a relatively quick alteration option if I wish to take it to the track 2 or 3 times a year. I don't mind tinkering for 2 hrs to get it back up to full spec and 2 hrs to restrict it back down afterwards. It won't be a daily thing.
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You're trying to get us to justify a selfish and frankly a stupid move. Putting your inexperienced wife behind a SS.

I dont care what you do to ANY bike, its all the other drivers out there and the person siting on the bike that have the control!!! The bike will do what ever the driver tells it to do! The question is what does "SHE" feel comfortable on. Not what works for "YOU"

WOW I cant believe how we are all rephrasing basically the same thing over and over and you dont get it!
 
rich6969 said:
ok Op why not tell us more about you wife...height ? how much does she weight?...you said she has No exp ?
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5'4", about 120lbs.

Her character is cautious, not reckless, but confident when she becomes familiar. I have evidenced this in her car driving style. She has a slight aggressive streak in terms of driving, but she is a respectful learner. No accidents, and took to the M2 course better than I thought...I would say in the top 25% of the class. A bunch of dudes in that class exhibited too much zeal and a number of then repeatedly dropped their bikes. She did not. Nor was she timid, except initially. I would say she has an appropriate character for riding. I myself have about 11 years riding experience in various countries on various commuter and SS bikes (no offroad experience mind you), so in terms of learning I think we have a good base to start from...she wont be on her own. I was when I started and ended up binning my FZ600 twice. Both were my fault and due to inexperience and over confidence. Both also due to braking mistakes!

So brakes are a primary concern when it comes to finding a solution for my wife. ABS would be ideal, but anything to delay lock up would be appreciated. Already bikes tend to outbrake cars, so a little relaxing of the mighty 10R's brakes would be something I would need to look at. I was certainly stunned when I tried my buddy's R6 for the first time, after only riding my FZ600. The same braking pressure on the R6 led to my first ever (accidental) stoppy! But the irony is, my only braking accidents came on the spongy FZ600 brakes....I managed to hamfist lock them up in raining conditions.

Obviously you can lock up even OJ in the rain, but still the 10R brakes are too much for a noob. So beyond power that's another issue.

I would also look at lowering the bike....max is 30mm from what I have found...and softening the suspension, probably to its lower limits.

I ride near 70% max stiffness...I like to keep my bike on track settings, and I am not too sure of how soft I can get the 10R. I have also ridden a few honda 125cc's lately...some kind young noobs let me test their bikes so I could acquaint myself with the 125 ride feeling. I would say any noob can outgrow a 125 in 2 months. They tend to be extremely soft, barely keep up with cars, and have very mushy brakes. In that regard I find the lack of response of a 125 potentially dangerous due to inability to respond to traffic conditions that may require a quick out or quick reaction. So mimicking a 250cc's to 400cc's behavior is what I am looking to see if it is even possible.
 
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09SV650S said:
You're trying to get us to justify a selfish and frankly a stupid move. Putting your inexperienced wife behind a SS.

I dont care what you do to ANY bike, its all the other drivers out there and the person siting on the bike that have the control!!! The bike will do what ever the driver tells it to do! The question is what does "SHE" feel comfortable on. Not what works for "YOU"

WOW I cant believe how we are all rephrasing basically the same thing over and over and you dont get it!
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Buddy,

That whole thing you just said could have been said by any rider's mom or dad. The whole argument you have for riding could be dismissed by that same line you just laid down. We all ALREADY understand the risks we take on when we get on two wheels and get out on the road with cages....yes we get it! Like I said, I have riden many different bikes, from 50cc to 1200cc in many different conditions in many different settings and countries....I know the damn learning curve. I also know my wife.

What I don't know....and what I am INVESTIGATING (rather than you assuming I have made a conclusion), is whether a 1L can be modified to bahave similarly to a 250cc. Even the 250cc is a risk....like I said...everything you just said even applies to the 250! We are beyond that point already. I am asking for specific technical and experienced advice in the matters of restriction and modification.

Not advice on risk management when it comes to lifestyle choices. That advice is obvious and has already been considered. Thanks!

In terms of riding ANY bike, we intend to spend hours in the parking lot familiarizing with ANY bike. Also riding will likely be on small side roads on lazy sundays for quite some time. What I don't want is slights of hand causing radical outcomes...in terms of power and braking. This is one of the fundamental differences between a starter bike and an SS, the sheer radical responsiveness of an SS to very minor hand movements. If these aspects can be dulled, to provide a forgiving input response, this is something I am seriously looking at.

And believe me I get the whole SS thing, the whole "never start on an SS line"...I am an advocate! Hence why I am looking into neutralizing what makes an SS an SS! If that can be done, and it can behave like a muted bike (a 250 for example), then we wont have a case of starting on an SS will we? It would just appear that way! So relax a little and explore some hypotheticals with me in this thread.

It make also come in handy for other people looking to start on a bike they like, and modding it to be safe, rather than starting on a pure 600ss and being an idiot about it. So....I advocate proper learning curves and graduated licencing....let's just get that clear.
 
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awyala said:
5'4", about 120lbs.

Her character is cautious, not reckless, but confident when she becomes familiar. I have evidenced this in her car driving style. She has a slight aggressive streak in terms of driving, but she is a respectful learner. No accidents, and took to the M2 course better than I thought...I would say in the top 25% of the class. A bunch of dudes in that class exhibited too much zeal and a number of then repeatedly dropped their bikes. She did not. Nor was she timid, except initially. I would say she has an appropriate character for riding. I myself have about 11 years riding experience in various countries on various commuter and SS bikes (no offroad experience mind you), so in terms of learning I think we have a good base to start from...she wont be on her own. I was when I started and ended up binning my FZ600 twice. Both were my fault and due to inexperience and over confidence. Both also due to braking mistakes!

So brakes are a primary concern when it comes to finding a solution for my wife. ABS would be ideal, but anything to delay lock up would be appreciated. Already bikes tend to outbrake cars, so a little relaxing of the mighty 10R's brakes would be something I would need to look at. I was certainly stunned when I tried my buddy's R6 for the first time, after only riding my FZ600. The same braking pressure on the R6 led to my first ever (accidental) stoppy! But the irony is, my only braking accidents came on the spongy FZ600 brakes....I managed to hamfist lock them up in raining conditions.

Obviously you can lock up even OJ in the rain, but still the 10R brakes are too much for a noob. So beyond power that's another issue.

I would also look at lowering the bike....max is 30mm from what I have found...and softening the suspension, probably to its lower limits.
Click to expand...

You're worried about losing a bit on the 1K but are willing to shell out a bunch of cash to lower the bike, restrict the HP, mess with the braking system and any other mod that comes to mind but wont take a small loss (or savings depending on all the mods you talk about) just to sell and get her a bike that she's comfortable with. mmmmm Weighting out the cost differences might be splitting hairs at that point!
 
awyala said:
5'4", about 120lbs.

Her character is cautious, not reckless, but confident when she becomes familiar. I have evidenced this in her car driving style. She has a slight aggressive streak in terms of driving, but she is a respectful learner. No accidents, and took to the M2 course better than I thought...I would say in the top 25% of the class. A bunch of dudes in that class exhibited too much zeal and a number of then repeatedly dropped their bikes. She did not. Nor was she timid, except initially. I would say she has an appropriate character for riding. I myself have about 11 years riding experience in various countries on various commuter and SS bikes (no offroad experience mind you), so in terms of learning I think we have a good base to start from...she wont be on her own. I was when I started and ended up binning my FZ600 twice. Both were my fault and due to inexperience and over confidence. Both also due to braking mistakes!

So brakes are a primary concern when it comes to finding a solution for my wife. ABS would be ideal, but anything to delay lock up would be appreciated. Already bikes tend to outbrake cars, so a little relaxing of the mighty 10R's brakes would be something I would need to look at. I was certainly stunned when I tried my buddy's R6 for the first time, after only riding my FZ600. The same braking pressure on the R6 led to my first ever (accidental) stoppy! But the irony is, my only braking accidents came on the spongy FZ600 brakes....I managed to hamfist lock them up in raining conditions.

Obviously you can lock up even OJ in the rain, but still the 10R brakes are too much for a noob. So beyond power that's another issue.

I would also look at lowering the bike....max is 30mm from what I have found...and softening the suspension, probably to its lower limits.
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OP you are asking for trouble even if you pulled all plugs out..its a big bike for a small girl...good luck hop we dont read abour her next year...
 
awyala said:
Buddy,

That whole thing you just said could have been said by any rider's mom or dad. The whole argument you have for riding could be dismissed by that same line you just laid down. We all ALREADY understand the risks we take on when we get on two wheels and get out on the road with cages....yes we get it! Like I said, I have riden many different bikes, from 50cc to 1200cc in many different conditions in many different settings and countries....I know the damn learning curve. I also know my wife.

What I don't know....and what I am INVESTIGATING (rather than you assuming I have made a conclusion), is whether a 1L can be modified to bahave similarly to a 250cc. Even the 250cc is a risk....like I said...everything you just said even applies to the 250! We are beyond that point already. I am asking for specific technical and experienced advice in the matters of restriction and modification.

Not advice on risk management when it comes to lifestyle choices. That advice is obvious and has already been considered. Thanks!

In terms of riding ANY bike, we intend to spend hours in the parking lot familiarizing with ANY bike. Also riding will likely be on small side roads on lazy sundays for quite some time. What I don't want is slights of hand causing radical outcomes...in terms of power and braking. This is one of the fundamental differences between a starter bike and an SS, the sheer radical responsiveness of an SS to very minor hand movements. If these aspects can be dulled, to provide a forgiving input response, this is something I am seriously looking at.

And believe me I get the whole SS thing, the whole "never start on an SS line"...I am an advocate! Hence why I am looking into neutralizing what makes an SS an SS! If that can be done, and it can behave like a muted bike (a 250 for example), then we wont have a case of starting on an SS will we? It would just appear that way! So relax a little and explore some hypotheticals with me in this thread.

It make also come in handy for other people looking to start on a bike they like, and modding it to be safe, rather than starting on a pure 600ss and being an idiot about it. So....I advocate proper learning curves and graduated licencing....let's just get that clear.
Click to expand...

Apparently you're the expert that has had how many miss haps? 2? and you're worried about saving a bit of money to possibly jeopardize your girls safety over a bit of money, so you have a track bike for a few days. Pretty selfish move!

Oh and the brake mod, lowering the bike, restricting HP, will all be great mods for the track when you do get on it!

On the positive note by getting her a bike she's comfortable with should see some insurance savings not to mention increasing her safety as a rider which is pretty priceless.

But hey like you said "Let's get that clear"

Aaaaaaannnnnnddddd I'm Spent!
 
09SV650S said:
You're worried about losing a bit on the 1K but are willing to shell out a bunch of cash to lower the bike, restrict the HP, mess with the braking system and any other mod that comes to mind but wont take a small loss (or savings depending on all the mods you talk about) just to sell and get her a bike that she's comfortable with. mmmmm Weighting out the cost differences might be splitting hairs at that point!
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Do you know the costs? I don't...hence the investigation. Do you ever explore options before making a decision? Generally I tend to plan out all options first and make an informed choice. If I knew all the costs involved and made a direct comparison I might just sell the bike....but unless you have some hard numbers, for both mod costs and selling multiple bikes at losses costs, I doubt you have the ability to make the choice either.

Really, dude, I am asking for experienced advice here, if you don't have it....I already know your position. Thanks anyways.

Keep in mind it isn't just about selling one bike...it's multiple bikes. You don't know the difference between the sale price of my 10R and the outstanding finance. You don't also know the likelihood of selling the ninja in a market where insurance premium are increasing as they are and SS bikes are dropping in popularity.

You don't also know when and how she will acclimatize to a 250cc and move up....or not enjoy riding at all and give up! Then what do we do with a 250cc we both don't want. Investing $500 to $1000 to mod a 10R to give it a broader range of flexibility has many benefits, one of which is broadening a resale market, flexibility of options with respect to my wife's final decision on riding (she could learn very well on it, give it up and give it back to me, or it could be a shared bike). These are all potentially cost saving possibilities IF THEY RESTRICTED MOD IS POSSIBLE.

There is an IF I am investigating. Not sure if you realize that part. It is not a matter of splitting hairs...it is a matter of collecting information to make an informed decision. You may not have been aware that restricting bikes to 33bhp is quite accepted in the UK and accepted by insurers as valid when it comes to graduated licences. So it is not such a radical notion.

You may also be aware that a bike such as Aprilia's 125RS is a highly responsive track tool, but with 33bhp. It has the responsiveness of any 600R, brakes, suspension and all. Yet you would hardly get yourself in such a twist if I recommended that for a beginner rider.

The idea of a low capacity SS is not so insane....so my question revolves around the behavioral characteristics of a restricted SS engine.

If you have any info on that particular technical matter, please pitch in, otherwise you just come off as arrogant about a certain, already acknowledged matter of SS riders and noobs....we get that part already. Move on!
 
rich6969 said:
OP you are asking for trouble even if you pulled all plugs out..its a big bike for a small girl...good luck hop we dont read abour her next year...
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I am not sure pulling plugs is a solution. I think it has a strange effect on power delivery. I once had a plug fail on me in the rain with my SV650S ( a problem for that bike ), and the engine became jumpy and irratic with a very inconsistant behavior.

I don't think an inline 4 behaves predictable and smoothly on 1 or even 2 cylinders.

I don't feel pulling plugs is a restricting solution.
 
awyala said:
Do you know the costs? I don't...hence the investigation. Do you ever explore options before making a decision? Generally I tend to plan out all options first and make an informed choice. If I knew all the costs involved and made a direct comparison I might just sell the bike....but unless you have some hard numbers, for both mod costs and selling multiple bikes at losses costs, I doubt you have the ability to make the choice either.

Really, dude, I am asking for experienced advice here, if you don't have it....I already know your position. Thanks anyways.

Keep in mind it isn't just about selling one bike...it's multiple bikes. You don't know the difference between the sale price of my 10R and the outstanding finance. You don't also know the likelihood of selling the ninja in a market where insurance premium are increasing as they are and SS bikes are dropping in popularity.

You don't also know when and how she will acclimatize to a 250cc and move up....or not enjoy riding at all and give up! Then what do we do with a 250cc we both don't want. Investing $500 to $1000 to mod a 10R to give it a broader range of flexibility has many benefits, one of which is broadening a resale market, flexibility of options with respect to my wife's final decision on riding (she could learn very well on it, give it up and give it back to me, or it could be a shared bike). These are all potentially cost saving possibilities IF THEY RESTRICTED MOD IS POSSIBLE.

There is an IF I am investigating. Not sure if you realize that part. It is not a matter of splitting hairs...it is a matter of collecting information to make an informed decision. You may not have been aware that restricting bikes to 33bhp is quite accepted in the UK and accepted by insurers as valid when it comes to graduated licences. So it is not such a radical notion.

You may also be aware that a bike such as Aprilia's 125RS is a highly responsive track tool, but with 33bhp. It has the responsiveness of any 600R, brakes, suspension and all. Yet you would hardly get yourself in such a twist if I recommended that for a beginner rider.

The idea of a low capacity SS is not so insane....so my question revolves around the behavioral characteristics of a restricted SS engine.

If you have any info on that particular technical matter, please pitch in, otherwise you just come off as arrogant about a certain, already acknowledged matter of SS riders and noobs....we get that part already. Move on!
Click to expand...

You cant gather facts on common sense.......you either have it or you don't. End of thread for me. Have fun and a truly hope not to read about her next year.
 
09SV650S said:
Apparently you're the expert that has had how many miss haps? 2? and you're worried about saving a bit of money to possibly jeopardize your girls safety over a bit of money, so you have a track bike for a few days. Pretty selfish move!

Oh and the brake mod, lowering the bike, restricting HP, will all be great mods for the track when you do get on it!

On the positive note by getting her a bike she's comfortable with should see some insurance savings not to mention increasing her safety as a rider which is pretty priceless.

But hey like you said "Let's get that clear"

Aaaaaaannnnnnddddd I'm Spent!
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Never said expert....I implied experience. There is a difference.

Yes, I have had 4 falls actually....2 my own fault on my first bike. 1 a cyclist ran a red light on a cold novermber rainy night and we ended up in a slow speed collision and once on the track in a low side. I would say I have experience with various forms of falling and from that know very well the limits of certain bikes, in terms of locking up brakes, in terms of sliding out rears, and in terms of emergency braking in the worst possible conditions. And going down is part of riding...especially as riding everyday increases the risk. But some dudes only ride on got sunny sundays, 10 to 20 times a year. Most of those dudes don't lean a bike past kick stand angles and most of them will never know the limits of their bikes. So staying upright doesn't imply experience either.

In terms of the mods I am investigating....going out for a track day involves some prep time anyways...I really don't mind if that prep time is doubled or trippled to reverse restriction mods, as I would only be going to the track 2 or 3 times a year, and she wouldn't be riding more than once or twice a week anyways.

But your point about insurance is a good one....I would need to look into comparable insurance rates and the possibility of a second rider on my existing insurance.That's one possibility. The other, less likely possibility, is that the insurer consider the restriction as a drop in ccs and alters the rate. I doubt this, but it may be a hard fought possibility if I can assure them the bike is restricted to 33bhp. Which is what makes the UK restrictor option attractive...because it comes with certification for exactly these purposes. But that remains an option to further explore. Good point.
 
09SV650S said:
You cant gather facts on common sense.......you either have it or you don't. End of thread for me. Have fun and a truly hope not to read about her next year.
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Seriously dude, you come off as insulting and belittling. Implying her death and my lack of common sense is uncalled for. You don't know me, my temperment, intelligence or character and to dismiss this whole discussion, and that's all that this is, as something reckless is rather cheap and condecending on your part.

Have you ever ridden a 1L ss? I am curious as to your riding experience the way you come off. I already told you mine. I could just as easily level those low comments back at you for riding a bike in the first place...complete with "organ doner" insults. That really is low dude.
 
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