50 shot dead - Orlando shooting

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Snobike Mike said:
So you admit it's the people not the guns that's the problem? Wouldn't it then make sense to go after the people, such as those with mental health issues and/or with terrorist links rather than the inanimate objects such as guns, airplanes, fertilizers and the like that they use to perpetrate their terrible crimes? Oh right, it's only guns that matter.
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Well, first, in the wake of Oklahoma City it did become quite a bit more difficult to obtain large quantities of ammonium nitrate. In the wake of 9-11 and the various shoe- and underwear-bomb attempts it has become very much more onerous to fly due to massively increase security. What's really interesting is that in the wake of Sandy Hook and Columbine and all the other mass shootings in the US in the last number of decades it doesn't seem to have gotten any more difficult for people to obtain these WMDs (indeed, it seems to have gotten easier and easier.) Oh right, guns aren't the problem...

So where do you draw the line? If "inanimate objects" are not the problem then why do we put restrictions on anything? If a peek inside your Muslim neighbor's garage showed revealed crates of sarin and VX...no problem, right? If the white redneck on the other side of you was stockpiling bags of ammonium nitrate and barrels of fuel oil...no problem, right? After all, these are just inanimate objects, right?

Do you support the world restricting the proliferation of, say, nuclear weapons? Are you okay with North Korea obtaining fusion weapons and the ability to deliver them to Manhattan?

There must be something; you must have a line in the proverbial sand: What is it and why?

PS, would holding the door closed to keep victims inside an establishment such as a night club while a terrorist is killing people with great rapidity increase or decrease the total death rate?
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Why are you even asking this?
 
Goddamn COP KILLER ammunition. How dare they sell...... FMJ rifle ammo lol
 
Look at this evil box of cop killer ammo.... goddamn what has the world COME TO

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Blackfin said:
Why are you even asking this?
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Why do I keep asking if someone held the door closed? Well because there is at least some evidence the terrorist had someone who has admitted to holding the door closed at the nightclub which would in all likelihood increase the death toll. ;)

So while "progressives" continue to be focused on rhetoric about big black guns which "kill masses of people extremely quickly and that's the only thing they are designed to do", said people continue to (willfully I might add) ignore the other facts that would increase death tolls, and blatantly ignore the terrorist elements. All of this is done of course because it doesn't follow the anti-gun narrative. ;)

Plain and simple, this was a terrorist act. The solution to any act of violence is not to sanction law abiding citizens. And in the case of terrorism, the root causes are also not guns (or airplanes or pressure cookers, or fertilizers).
 
Snobike Mike said:
With America being the number 1 in terms of per capita gun ownership, can you explain why they are so far down the list in terms of per capita murder rate?
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I'm not sure why I need to explain anything? Folks are getting killed and the country can't agree to a solution. Doesn't matter what other countries do or not.

Label it terrorism or mentally deranged or whatever, seems like when folks have an idea they want to go out in a blaze of glory, they are doing it in spectacular fashion and trying to set the bar higher every time. And folks are getting conditioned it's acceptable.


There are smarter folks that I with ideas and solutions.
 
-D- said:
why you shifting from answering?

how many people died or got hurt from pressure cooker bombs?
how many died last week alone...go on, provide the numbers
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I'm not shifting answers at all. I'm very clearly pointing out your incorrect rhetoric and ignorance of things like ballistics.

Guns aren't the problem, just like the pressure cooker used in the Boston Bombing, or the airplanes used in 9/11, or the knives in the recent Calgary "massacre" aren't the problem.

Things like mental health and terrorism are the root causes. Why do you want to switch the focus/blame onto inanimate objects and/or law abiding citizens? Why do you think that criminals that don't follow laws anyways will follow gun control laws?
 
nakkers said:
I'm not sure why I need to explain anything? Folks are getting and the country can't agree to a solution. Doesn't matter what other countries do or not.

Label it terrorism or mentally deranged or whatever, seems like when folks have an idea they want to go out in a blaze of glory, they are doing it in spectacular fashion and trying to set the bar higher every time. And folks are getting conditioned it's acceptable.


There are smarter folks that I with ideas and solutions.
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Please name one solution and I have a suggestion. Give solutions that focus on mental health issues or terrorism.

PS, 80 million law abiding American gun owners who own over 300 million guns didn't kill anybody today, or yesterday, or the day before........

PPS, the point about the gun ownership vs murder rate is a clear indication that total number of guns doesn't drive murder rate in the US. Furthermore, simply focusing on guns (because it's an agenda) ignores a wide variety of other social, economic, and global issues that are far more relevant to the murder rate in a given country.
 
Snobike Mike said:
Please name one solution and I have a suggestion. Give solutions that focus on mental health issues or terrorism.

PS, 80 million law abiding American gun owners who own over 300 million guns didn't kill anybody today, or yesterday, or the day before........

PPS, the point about the gun ownership vs murder rate is a clear indication that total number of guns doesn't drive murder rate in the US. Furthermore, simply focusing on guns (because it's an agenda) ignores a wide variety of other social, economic, and global issues that are far more relevant to the murder rate in a given country.
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We ask Muslims to speak out against terrorism and denounce folks that use the religion to their own agenda.

I think we should ask gun owners for solutions. They defend their rights but, point fingers or ask others for solutions and shout down folks that offer solutions because it infringes on their rights.

From the beginning, I said it's not easy. And change will come. And it won't be good for all. And it likely won't prevent more mass killings.

But, it will be a start.
 
nakkers said:
We ask Muslims to speak out against terrorism and denounce folks that use the religion to their own agenda.

I think we should ask gun owners for solutions. They defend their rights but, point fingers or ask others for solutions and shout down folks that offer solutions because it infringes on their rights.

From the beginning, I said it's not easy. And change will come. And it won't be good for all. And it likely won't prevent more mass killings.

But, it will be a start.
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Lawful gun owners speak out against gun violence as well, the difference is that as soon as anything happens with guns, the immediately and unwavering attack is to increase gun control and sanction law abiding gun owners. It is the gun owners who are attacked by the progressives, don't you think they should be able to respond to such attacks?

I'll say it again, the root cause isn't guns, or pressure cookers, or airplanes or knives, or motorcycles or cars. These are all inanimate objects that at some point or another cause their users, or those around them to be killed.

Root causes are things like mental health, terrorism, gangs, etc. and that is where the focus needs to be. Anything else is simple progressive rhetoric to advance the gun control agenda. Why don't we hear about that?

Why is the DOJ specifically and deliberately covering up the fact that this was a terrorist act???
 
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A lot of people who speak out against guns know that a world without guns is better than a world with guns. They probably don't have any satisfying facts to back that up but, as a whole, these people are not as searingly obtuse as certain gun advocates.
 
Snobike Mike said:
PPS, the point about the gun ownership vs murder rate is a clear indication that total number of guns doesn't drive murder rate in the US. Furthermore, simply focusing on guns (because it's an agenda) ignores a wide variety of other social, economic, and global issues that are far more relevant to the murder rate in a given country.
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According to one academic estimate, the buyback took in and destroyed 20 percent of all privately owned guns in Australia. Analysis of import data suggests that Australians haven't purchased nearly enough guns in the past 18 years to make up for the initial decline.
[h=3]Australia's program saved a lot of lives[/h]
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Australia's gun buyback in action. (William West/AFP/Getty Images)
In 2011, Harvard's David Hemenway and Mary Vriniotis reviewed the research on Australia's suicide and homicide rate after the NFA. Their conclusion was clear: "The NFA seems to have been incredibly successful in terms of lives saved."
What they found is a decline in both suicide and homicide rates after the NFA. The average firearm suicide rate in Australia in the seven years after the bill declined by 57 percent compared with the seven years prior. The average firearm homicide rate went down by about 42 percent.
Now, Australia's homicide rate was already declining before the NFA was implemented — so you can't attribute all of the drops to the new laws. But there's good reason to believe the NFA, especially the buyback provisions, mattered a great deal in contributing to those declines.
"First," Hemenway and Vriniotis write, "the drop in firearm deaths was largest among the type of firearms most affected by the buyback. Second, firearm deaths in states with higher buyback rates per capita fell proportionately more than in states with lower buyback rates."
There is also this: 1996 and 1997, the two years in which the NFA was actually implemented, saw the largest percentage declines in the homicide rate in any two-year period in Australia between 1915 and 2004.
Pinning down exactly how much the NFA contributed is harder. One study concluded that buying back 3,500 guns per 100,000 people correlated with up to a 50 percent drop in firearm homicides. But as Dylan Matthews points out, the results were not statistically significant because Australia has a pretty low number of murders already.
However, the paper's findings about suicide were statistically significant — and astounding. Buying back 3,500 guns correlated with a 74 percent drop in firearm suicides. Non-gun suicides didn't increase to make up the decline.

http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback
 
inreb said:
A lot of people who speak out against guns know that a world without guns is better than a world with guns. They probably don't have any satisfying facts to back that up but, as a whole, these people are not as searingly obtuse as certain gun advocates.
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Arizona shooting range reviews policy after 9-year-old kills gun instructor


Incident has left some wondering what sort of parents would let a child handle a submachine gun

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/arizon...ter-9-year-old-kills-gun-instructor-1.2748814

Look at the video, an 8 yr old shot and killed himself too.
Look at the dumbarse evade the question by stating well kids younger than 9 are using Ak's in the Middle East.

The gun lobby sure seems to be acting like the terrorists they claim they need protection from.
 
Is there anything less romantic than a big pile of guns like so much scrap? I wonder if they ran it over with a bulldozer for the camera? I would click on that video.
 
Snobike Mike said:
Why do I keep asking if someone held the door closed? Well because there is at least some evidence the terrorist had someone who has admitted to holding the door closed at the nightclub which would in all likelihood increase the death toll. ;)
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I have never seen someone stretch and contort so far to deflect any semblance of blame away from guns.

You keep talking about pressure cookers as if they're somehow comparable -- indeed, exactly equivalent -- to guns simply because they're inanimate objects. Somewhere earlier in this thread I posed that between 2001 and 2013 406,496 people died by firearms (being used as they were intended) on US soil. Do me a favor: Tell me how many Americans died on US soil due to pressure cookers; I'll even give you the added benefit of not restricting those deaths to them being used "as designed" but rather being used in any way, shape or form.

Hmm...the Boston Marathon bombing of 2013 killed 3 people. So that's 0.0007380146% of the way to the number of people dead at the end of a gun barrel. Got any more for pressure cookers?

Plain and simple, this was a terrorist act. The solution to any act of violence is not to sanction law abiding citizens. And in the case of terrorism, the root causes are also not guns (or airplanes or pressure cookers, or fertilizers).
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You dodged a great deal of my post: Why is that? To remind you:

So where do you draw the line? If "inanimate objects" are not the problem then why do we put restrictions on anything? If a peek inside your Muslim neighbor's garage showed revealed crates of sarin and VX...no problem, right? If the white redneck on the other side of you was stockpiling bags of ammonium nitrate and barrels of fuel oil...no problem, right? After all, these are just inanimate objects, right?

Do you support the world restricting the proliferation of, say, nuclear weapons? Are you okay with North Korea obtaining fusion weapons and the ability to deliver them to Manhattan?

There must be something; you must have a line in the proverbial sand: What is it and why?
 
-D- said:
Arizona shooting range reviews policy after 9-year-old kills gun instructor


Incident has left some wondering what sort of parents would let a child handle a submachine gun
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He probably wasn't a very good instructor. Like they say, people are the weak link.
 
Snobike Mike said:
Lawful gun owners speak out against gun violence as well, the difference is that as soon as anything happens with guns, the immediately and unwavering attack is to increase gun control and sanction law abiding gun owners. It is the gun owners who are attacked by the progressives, don't you think they should be able to respond to such attacks?

I'll say it again, the root cause isn't guns, or pressure cookers, or airplanes or knives, or motorcycles or cars. These are all inanimate objects that at some point or another cause their users, or those around them to be killed.

Root causes are things like mental health, terrorism, gangs, etc. and that is where the focus needs to be. Anything else is simple progressive rhetoric to advance the gun control agenda. Why don't we hear about that?

Why is the DOJ specifically and deliberately covering up the fact that this was a terrorist act???
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Saw this recently...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjB0gTzxhF4
 
Blackfin said:
Hmm...the Boston Marathon bombing of 2013 killed 3 people. So that's 0.0007380146% of the way to the number of people dead at the end of a gun barrel. Got any more for pressure cookers?
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The problem is that pressure cooker bombs are illegal, and that limits an individual's opportunities to practice and build up their pressure cooker skills. If we could simply legalize the things, develop them further and market them to the masses as the perfect home defense system (self-detonating pressure cooker mine field around a property's perimeter and remote-detonated pressure cookers placed at every door and window).

Of course concealed carry may be difficult with the present state of technology, and open carry rather cumbersome, but give it time and the industry will sure develop them to more a efficient level, just as they have with guns.
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