2012 Auto Show

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Re: GM still facing huge pension shortfall

caboose483 said:
On what stats are you basing your opinion that they are struggling and sinking fast? Or are you just sharing your personal opinion again?
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I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried.....

Here is one link from Business Week.......

"To younger generations, that's grandpa's car," says auto analyst Jesse Toprak of researcher TrueCar, "That doesn't help when you're going up against Mercedes and BMW."

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_20/b4178023174411.htm


And a blurb from Car and Driver......

Lincoln Takes a Beatin’

Number of Lincoln models offered during the past year: 6
Number of body styles in which the BMW 3-series is available: 4
No. of months during the past 12 in which the 3-series outsold the Lincoln brand: 11
Approx. cost to renovate a Lincoln showroom, which Ford is recommending: $1 million

What the numbers reveal: The blue oval’s execs can talk themselves blue in the face about Lincoln dealers needing to provide a premium experience, both in terms of facilities and customer service. But the bottom line is that the product isn’t there. Lincoln doesn’t necessarily need to take on the 3-series—the entry sports-sedan segment is too crowded to scrape up meaningful sales—but the brand does, however, need cars that people actually want to buy. The MKZ concept, which debuted at the Detroit auto show last month, didn’t bowl people over, and its stylish Ford Fusion sibling is likely to nab more than a few potential MKZ customers.
 
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Re: GM still facing huge pension shortfall

SunnY S said:
Whether you choose to believe it or not, Lincoln are struggling and sinking fast. Their US market share is a piddly 0.8%. Their owners median age is the oldest of all the luxury car groups at 62, and they possess the least median income.

2011 US sales :

BMW 247,907
Lexus 198,522
Lincoln 85,633

The Lincoln is only available in North America, so with these pathetic figures, IMHO, its hard to guage an accurate number of true quality. The Lexus and BMW are sold to WORLDWIDE markets, and in greater numbers, so there are several Quality reports available all over the world to better guage their products from people that actually own them!


Cadillac

Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $129,656
4-Year College Degree: 21.90%

BMW

Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $169,289
4-Year College Degree: 29.07%

Lexus

Average Age of Owner: 56
Median Income: $141,745
4-Year College Degree: 26.45%

Mercedes-Benz

Average Age of Owner: 53
Median Income: $174,558
4-Year College Degree: 27.74%

Audi

Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $183,601
4-Year College Degree: 31.66%

Lincoln

Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $113,782
4-Year College Degree: 25.47%
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are you going to answer the question of what is the magic number for a statistically significant sample size or no? Same goes for age......Lexus owners are 56 years old should we ignore their surveys because they are old like you suggested for Lincoln owners or is 56 ok........I'm gonna guess 56 is just fine, but 62 is too old right? Lol

I want to see what the quality surveys say in the biggest car market in the world........China, oh wait do the Japanese sell enough cars there to be statistically significant?

Let's face it, the difference in quality from worst to best is insignificant.......it's one trip to the dealership a year different.
 
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Re: GM still facing huge pension shortfall

SunnY S said:
I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried.....

Here is one link from Business Week.......

"To younger generations, that's grandpa's car," says auto analyst Jesse Toprak of researcher TrueCar, "That doesn't help when you're going up against Mercedes and BMW."

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_20/b4178023174411.htm


And a blurb from Car and Driver......

Lincoln Takes a Beatin’

Number of Lincoln models offered during the past year: 6
Number of body styles in which the BMW 3-series is available: 4
No. of months during the past 12 in which the 3-series outsold the Lincoln brand: 11
Approx. cost to renovate a Lincoln showroom, which Ford is recommending: $1 million

What the numbers reveal: The blue oval’s execs can talk themselves blue in the face about Lincoln dealers needing to provide a premium experience, both in terms of facilities and customer service. But the bottom line is that the product isn’t there. Lincoln doesn’t necessarily need to take on the 3-series—the entry sports-sedan segment is too crowded to scrape up meaningful sales—but the brand does, however, need cars that people actually want to buy. The MKZ concept, which debuted at the Detroit auto show last month, didn’t bowl people over, and its stylish Ford Fusion sibling is likely to nab more than a few potential MKZ customers.
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I still didn't read anything in there about Lincoln going under. The only conclusions you can draw from that article are that Lincoln has a very small market share and that they don't sell well in horse country, Kentucky.

How did you make the jump from that to them struggling and sinking fast?
 
Re: GM still facing huge pension shortfall

caboose483 said:
On what stats are you basing your opinion that they are struggling and sinking fast? Or are you just sharing your personal opinion again?
Click to expand...


caboose483 said:
I still didn't read anything in there about Lincoln going under. The only conclusions you can draw from that article are that Lincoln has a very small market share and that they don't sell well in horse country, Kentucky.

How did you make the jump from that to them struggling and sinking fast?
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^^^^ Ford/Lincoln owner in denial.

Even Fords US President says its a LAST CHANCE..........what does that mean to you?

Simply that they are struggling and sinking fast. As each year passes, their market share shrinks. Not saying they can't turn it around. Just calling it as it currently stands.


"Ford to drop $1B on "last chance" Lincoln turn around efforts"

Dealers gathered in Detroit for an annual meeting were told that Ford will spend the money on what Ford President of the Americas Mark Fields calls the automaker’s “last chance.”​
​


http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-to-drop-1b-on-last-chance-lincoln-turnaround-efforts.html




















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Re: GM still facing huge pension shortfall

Can you repeat that please? I didn't quite get it.

You're worse than Apple fanboys. Good copy and paste work though.
 
Re: GM still facing huge pension shortfall

SunnY S said:
^^^^ Ford/Lincoln owner in denial.

Even Fords US President says its a LAST CHANCE..........what does that mean to you?

Simply that they are struggling and sinking fast. As each year passes, their market share shrinks. Not saying they can't turn it around. Just calling it as it currently stands.


"Ford to drop $1B on "last chance" Lincoln turn around efforts"

Dealers gathered in Detroit for an annual meeting were told that Ford will spend the money on what Ford President of the Americas Mark Fields calls the automaker’s “last chance.”​
​


http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-to-drop-1b-on-last-chance-lincoln-turnaround-efforts.html


​
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I don't own a Ford and never have, and I don't think I ever will :-) I just don't like their designs, but just as an FYI you need to look at the balance sheet.

135B in sales, $20B in income with a $15% net profit margin in 2011. The only market sector that exceeds 15% as an average is Drugs. Toyota had a net profit margin of 0.38% while Honda's was 1.35%, in 2011. Ford sales went from $116B in 2009 to $128B in 2010 to $135B in 2011. On paper, if I were to invest in any of these companies it would be Ford.

This has always been my beef with the Canadian education system. No-one is ever taught to read a corporate balance sheet. That should be manditory for everyone who graduates grade 12.
 
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Re: GM still facing huge pension shortfall

Delboy said:
I don't own a Ford and never have, and I don't think I ever will :-) I just don't like their designs, but just as an FYI you need to look at the balance sheet.

135B in sales, $20B in income with a $15% net profit margin in 2011. The only market sector that exceeds 15% as an average is Drugs. Toyota had a net profit margin of 0.38% while Honda's was 1.35%, in 2011. Ford sales went from $116B in 2009 to $128B in 2010 to $135B in 2011. On paper, if I were to invest in any of these companies it would be Ford.

This has always been my beef with the Canadian education system. No-one is ever taught to read a corporate balance sheet. That should be manditory for everyone who graduates grade 12.
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No need to read a balance sheet, you can usually get that info from most auto business sections in a newspaper.
 
Re: GM still facing huge pension shortfall

Delboy said:
I don't own a Ford and never have, and I don't think I ever will :-) I just don't like their designs, but just as an FYI you need to look at the balance sheet.

135B in sales, $20B in income with a $15% net profit margin in 2011. The only market sector that exceeds 15% as an average is Drugs. Toyota had a net profit margin of 0.38% while Honda's was 1.35%, in 2011. Ford sales went from $116B in 2009 to $128B in 2010 to $135B in 2011. On paper, if I were to invest in any of these companies it would be Ford.

This has always been my beef with the Canadian education system. No-one is ever taught to read a corporate balance sheet. That should be manditory for everyone who graduates grade 12.
Click to expand...

You are simplifying it a lot...
 
Re: GM still facing huge pension shortfall

Delboy said:
I don't own a Ford and never have, and I don't think I ever will :-) I just don't like their designs, but just as an FYI you need to look at the balance sheet.

135B in sales, $20B in income with a $15% net profit margin in 2011. The only market sector that exceeds 15% as an average is Drugs. Toyota had a net profit margin of 0.38% while Honda's was 1.35%, in 2011. Ford sales went from $116B in 2009 to $128B in 2010 to $135B in 2011. On paper, if I were to invest in any of these companies it would be Ford.

This has always been my beef with the Canadian education system. No-one is ever taught to read a corporate balance sheet. That should be manditory for everyone who graduates grade 12.
Click to expand...

Nobody said Fo Mo Co, wasn't doing well.

It's Lincoln that is suffering badly. They very nearly pulled the plug on Lincoln at the same time when they killed Mercury not that long ago.

Hence this "Last Chance" offering.

The problem is, Lincoln is serving up warmed over Ford's and serving them up to the public, who is much more educated on cars these days, and will have none it. Lincolns dropping sales figures and shrinking market share is a testament to this.

No matter how much money you"re making as a company, when you have a division that is sucking rocks, either the plug gets pulled, or something gets done.

Ask GM how they made out with Saturn, Saab, Hummer, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile. :)


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tricky said:
I wasn't too impressed either, but then again I'm not in the market to buy a car. I always like seeing Subaru and Volkswagen, they usually have some nice models, and didn't disappoint me this year.
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I'm in the market and I'm actually quite impressed with the new Imprezza. I drove the one from last year and within 2 seconds of sitting in the vehicle, I knew I wouldn't spend a dime on that model. The 2012 is a welcome change that is much closer to the Legacy that I was considering, but at a better price. VW is ok, but the model I would consider (TDI or GTI) is out of my price range.

I'd consider a Ford or GM if they had what I was looking for (manual transmission, AWD, & diesel). I absolutely refuse to drive onto a Chrysler lot unless it's to buy parts for my Jeep.

SunnY S said:
Why go back in 2013? Because this is what auto enthusiasts do.
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I consider myself an auto enthusiast and I avoided both NAIAS and the Toronto show this year. Far too crowded and too much of a hassle to look at cars I could look at by going to a dealership.

I do agree with your comment about horsepower race, it's pathetic. Anyone self respecting auto enthusiast knows it's not about peak horsepower, it's about the torque curve, the gearing that sends it to the tires, and the suspension that gives you the confidence to handle all that power!

Yes, I'm quoting page 1... As for the numbers of who's doing well and who isn't, I'm not jumping into that discussion.
 
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EngineerJoe said:
The 2012 is a welcome change that is much closer to the Legacy that I was considering, but at a better price.
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The wife recently traded in her '09 Impreza for a new '12 Legacy. I really liked the Impreza, but this new Legacy is a much better car.
 
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Honda's hybrids have never been strong sellers (and weren't government subsidized, and weren't developed in the public eye as being the savior of the company). A Honda hybrid not selling well isn't newsworthy because it's not tax money at work ...

For what it's worth, I'd say it's fair to call the recent-model Honda Insight a sales failure, and the CR-Z threatens to be in that category, too.

The CR-Z should have had the Civic SI's powertrain without the hybrid nonsense ...
 
Compared to the Toyota Prius, which sold 136,000+ copies in 2011, ANY car makers hybrid could be considered a "sales failure" as nobody has been able to touch this. However, both Honda's mentioned have outsold the Volt in the 2011 year. CR-Z with over 11,000 copies, and Insight with over 15,000 copies.

The Volt, which was to be GM's halo model, and when introduced "won numerous awards" and earned the recommendation of Consumer Reports magazine. So, where are the sales?






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Gummiente said:
The wife recently traded in her '09 Impreza for a new '12 Legacy. I really liked the Impreza, but this new Legacy is a much better car.
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Did she look at the '12 Imprezza? I will agree that the Legacy is a beautiful car. My only complaint is no manual-trans 6-cyl option... although they do have the turbo-4 w. manual which I respect.
 
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EngineerJoe said:
Did she look at the '12 Imprezza? I will agree that the Legacy is a beautiful car. My only complaint is no manual-trans + V6 option... although they do have the turbo-4 w. manual which I respect.
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I think you meant H6, not V6 :)

I have the turbo boxer engine in my legacy and it is a far nicer motor than the H6. The boxer layout is inherently balanced and its nice and torquey from low revs. The only downside is that you have to really stay on top of maintenance. Strict 5k oil changes with synthetic.
 
mma01 said:
I think you meant H6, not V6 :)

I have the turbo boxer engine in my legacy and it is a far nicer motor than the H6. The boxer layout is inherently balanced and its nice and torquey from low revs. The only downside is that you have to really stay on top of maintenance. Strict 5k oil changes with synthetic.
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Thank's for the correction. Stupid brain-fart on my part.

I find it weird that the 4 is smoother than the 6. 6-cylinder engines (well, straight-6 engines, not V6 engines) are more naturally balanced than their 4-cylinder equivalents.
 
SunnY S said:
Compared to the Toyota Prius, which sold 136,000+ copies in 2011, ANY car makers hybrid could be considered a "sales failure" as nobody has been able to touch this. However, both Honda's mentioned have outsold the Volt in the 2011 year. CR-Z with over 11,000 copies, and Insight with over 15,000 copies.

The Volt, which was to be GM's halo model, and when introduced "won numerous awards" and earned the recommendation of Consumer Reports magazine. So, where are the sales?
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The CR-Z and the Insight are both selling at rates far below what Honda's expectations were. (Still better than Volt ...) Honda developed the new Insight to take on the Prius, but it never caught on. Now, the Insight has become special-order-only - they don't advertise it, the dealers don't have any on display - like *that* is going to be good for sales.

I actually don't mind the CR-Z, but it should have been sold as the next CRX, which it could have been, if Honda hadn't been fixated at the time on making everything in their lineup "green" and hybrid. Should have had the Civic SI powertrain and no hybrid ... Even the regular Civic powertrain would have been fine in that car (that's what the original CRX had at the time). Would have made the car a couple hundred pounds lighter.
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