New Highway 413 Yea or Nay?

[Roadghost]

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Ford government is pushing forward with the new 413 highway. Looks like the Toronto Star (that wrote and editorial two years ago complaining that we need more GTA highways) is playing the mouthpiece for malcontents who are against it now. Is 413 a good idea?

Highway 413: The Opposition Reloads - In The Hills

The Ford government has resurrected the controversial highway 413 that will cut through south Caledon. Is it a done deal?

www.inthehills.ca

Ontario cities are fighting back against a new $6 billion 400-series highway

A new 400 series highway that is set to further link the Toronto area is getting pushback from municipalities who feel that the development's consequ…

www.blogto.com

 

[bikepike]

Absolutely. This highway should of been built 20 years ago. It seriously feels like nobody in government realizes how terrible our transit and highway system is. When we throw condos up in every free square inch of land nobody asks questions or debates it, but when a small new highway is proposed to relieve congestion, it’s a huge environmental and cost issue. Lmao this province is going downhill

 

[GreyGhost]

If the 407 hadn't been screwed up, I would say nay. The 407 should have been at least partially free (maybe two paid lanes and two free lanes?) to give people an alternative to 401 when travelling east/west as well as a higher route in case your destination is higher.

Since the 407 got screwed up and they are not going to stop building subdivisions anytime soon, I think it is a good idea as you are adding the cars you need to give them a way to move efficiently.

It's interesting that much of the opposition is from municipalities that are going to be bypassed by this, not even places that will be directly effected. The amount of uproar shows how much they depend on people being funneled into their municipality against their will.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Can't imagine the 407 is too happy about it, I suspect it would draw off a ton of people who would use it instead so long as they're not going past the 400. I'll pull out my tiny violin for the 407. Who knows, could cause them to slash their rates if they suddenly have to actually (gasp!) compete.

I only wish it went further east. A northern bypass to the 401 that didn't cost 3 arms and 6 legs like the 407 sounds like a dream to me. Reminds me a lot of the ring-road setup of many US cities.

 

[Roadghost]

I have to say, I was floored when Mike Harris sold the rights for 99 years to the 407. Tolls were originally supposed to come off in 2020. 407 is underused as a highway. Regardless, I'll still throw my vote for the 413. GTA is growing exponentially and the current highway system just won't do.

 

[Deleted member 50930]

It will just get sold and it will be 407 again

 

[Trials]

It follows the same path as all of the existing roads, it's just going to be a bigger controlled access slab that costs way more to illuminate and ride on. If they really want to reduce traffic congestion they need to put some roads in the directions that are difficult to travel now without zig-zagging all over the golden horseshoe.

 

[JZ67]

I agree with both bikepike and GreyGhost. The solution is multifaceted. We need better public transit connecting the 905 to 416. We also need to relieve congestion on the 400 series highway. A good PT system will help but doesn't work alone.

The 407 could be that answer but using it is too expensive. Buying back the portion owned by private investors and/or reducing the rates will do what the 413 is supposed to do.

Silly story. I found myself on a toll road in Indiana and checked to see how long I was going to be on it. GPS said 80 miles. I figured I was in for a pretty hefty bill. Got to the toll booth and it was $1.95.

Who wouldn't take the 407 if their daily commute was a few bucks rather than 10's or 20's of dollars daily.

 

[GreyGhost]

It will just get sold and it will be 407 again

Hopefully not. Since they already did that once with poor results, I would hope they come up with a better system this time. Hell, even revenue sharing instead of straight lease would be better even if they extorted the highway users. At least that way, the provincial kickback grows. The amount Harris accepted for the 407 is embarrassing. Bastard politicians.

 

[Roadghost]

It follows the same path as all of the existing roads, it's just going to be a bigger controlled access slab that costs way more to illuminate and ride on. If they really want to reduce traffic congestion they need to put some roads in the directions that are difficult to travel now without zig-zagging all over the golden horseshoe.

We certainly need more north/south highways. I can't for the life of me understand why 427 doesn't run up to Wasaga Beach to take pressure off the 400, but lets face it, Toronto is growing so rapidly that another beltway is desperately needed. 413 could be extended east and south.

 

[GreyGhost]

It follows the same path as all of the existing roads, it's just going to be a bigger controlled access slab that costs way more to illuminate and ride on. If they really want to reduce traffic congestion they need to put some roads in the directions that are difficult to travel now without zig-zagging all over the golden horseshoe.

I doesn't really follow the same path. It is ~10 km north of 407 and 20 km north of the 401. In the country, that's not far but given the congestion that it allows you to bypass, if you are above the city and want to get west of the city, it will shave off a ton of time.

As for all the people complaining about the loss of farmland. That's pretty much already happened on paper. If the highway isn't built, that will become houses or distribution centres. There is no way that farmland survives in the GTA with the price of land.

 

[GreyGhost]

We certainly need more north/south highways. I can't for the life of me understand why 427 doesn't run up to Wasaga Beach to take pressure off the 400, but lets face it, Toronto is growing so rapidly that another beltway is desperately needed. 413 could be extended east and south.

413 south is 407. 401/413/407 all intersect at that point. I don't see a viable way to deal with that. East would be interesting, but I think there is only one remotely viable corridor and it passes through thompson lake, philips lake and bond lake. Attempting to expropriate a corridor through a residential neighbourhood near there would be billions per km. I'm not saying I want the lakes destroyed (far from it), but realistically, I couldn't see it any other way. Interestingly enough, much of the residential there was designated as EP land and part of the Morraine but some deals were made to allow subdivisions there in exchange for converting swamps far from the GTA to EP. Grrr.

Apparently the north connector from 400 to 404 is also marching ahead (against opposition) so that helps some (although it will be substantially further north).

 

[ToSlow]

When i bought my house 20yrs ago in halton hills, that was one of the things they was selling is the new hwy running along the credit up to the bruce. Which i don't know if they are still looking at it
Hopefully they can get the 413 built

 

[GreyGhost]

I agree with both bikepike and GreyGhost. The solution is multifaceted. We need better public transit connecting the 905 to 416. We also need to relieve congestion on the 400 series highway. A good PT system will help but doesn't work alone.

The 407 could be that answer but using it is too expensive. Buying back the portion owned by private investors and/or reducing the rates will do what the 413 is supposed to do.

Silly story. I found myself on a toll road in Indiana and checked to see how long I was going to be on it. GPS said 80 miles. I figured I was in for a pretty hefty bill. Got to the toll booth and it was $1.95.

Who wouldn't take the 407 if their daily commute was a few bucks rather than 10's or 20's of dollars daily.

Public transit is a really interesting issue. It sounds like a good idea, but to be effective and efficient in the GTA is almost impossible. For public transit to be viable you need concentrated high density residential and a reason for people not to use their personal vehicles (cost, convenience, time, etc). The vast majority of suburban transit trips are much less convenient and take double or triple the time of a personal vehicle. Subdivisions are too spread out for viable transit and there are two to five vehicles per house. Pretty much the perfect storm against transit. Propose a line of towers up a suburban transit corridor though and watch the uproar. Look at the actual cost to provide a single surburban public transit trip and it is crazy. Something like Uber is approaching a viable alternative if the money was redirected.

As for 10's or 20's for a daily commute on the 407, I doubt many are that cheap. They added a $1 charge for every time you enter plus $4 per entrance for camera fee if you don't have a transponder. A co-worker is paying just under $100 a day for his toll on his commute and I know people paying more. $20 a day is ~15 km each way.

 

[Trials]

You watch, it won't be a bypass for anything it will be the toll road access to future expansion of the city.

 

[nobbie48]

All the opposition in the world won't mean a thing if developers want the highway and there are no changes to the OMB.

Is there any way this is only going to cost 6 billion dollars? I didn't politicians could count that low.

It seems to parallel the 407 about 8 Km north, skirting the denser population.

In my uneducated opinion a new highway now would steer the course of the developers vs the developers steering the course of the highway a few decades later at a far greater cost, dodging around obstacles.

Green belt legislation means nothing. Change is coming so get used to it or move to Pioneer Village.

I wonder how many of the opposers would sell their properties in a heartbeat if they got double the going rate.

On the average friendly street, if a developer picked ten houses to buy and demolish, offering double the going rate, how many of the chosen ten would say no?

The proposal looks like the highway dumps onto the 403 which has it's own overload issues.

I see it as a bandaid project, of some good but short sighted. The scope of the project has to include population densities, alternate transportation, decentralization, immigration, industrial base etc. The NIMBY part is the least of the problems

 

[ToSlow]

From the map posted it looks like it might be taking some already existing roads, King rd looks like it's just north and could be used as part of the new proposal

 

[nobbie48]

Can't imagine the 407 is too happy about it, I suspect it would draw off a ton of people who would use it instead so long as they're not going past the 400. I'll pull out my tiny violin for the 407. Who knows, could cause them to slash their rates if they suddenly have to actually (gasp!) compete.

I only wish it went further east. A northern bypass to the 401 that didn't cost 3 arms and 6 legs like the 407 sounds like a dream to me. Reminds me a lot of the ring-road setup of many US cities.

I thought there was a clause in the 407 lease that said that the government couldn't do anything that would affect the profitability of the 407. I remember wishing the government would do something to guarantee the profitability of my business.

 

[GreyGhost]

All the opposition in the world won't mean a thing if developers want the highway and there are no changes to the OMB.

Is there any way this is only going to cost 6 billion dollars? I didn't politicians could count that low.

It seems to parallel the 407 about 8 Km north, skirting the denser population.

In my uneducated opinion a new highway now would steer the course of the developers vs the developers steering the course of the highway a few decades later at a far greater cost, dodging around obstacles.

Green belt legislation means nothing. Change is coming so get used to it or move to Pioneer Village.

I wonder how many of the opposers would sell their properties in a heartbeat if they got double the going rate.

On the average friendly street, if a developer picked ten houses to buy and demolish, offering double the going rate, how many of the chosen ten would say no?

The proposal looks like the highway dumps onto the 403 which has it's own overload issues.

I see it as a bandaid project, of some good but short sighted. The scope of the project has to include population densities, alternate transportation, decentralization, immigration, industrial base etc. The NIMBY part is the least of the problems

Substantially all GTA land has been locked up by developers for decades. They may not own it on paper but they are throwing a lot of money at farmers to secure future purchases. Watching how some of these expropriation negotiation go down would make you vomit (you are impeding use of my land by building a highway so you need to give me 1M an acre to account for the impairment on my entire site plus expropriate the agricultural land for 1M an acre because I was going to get it zoned residential. I don't care that I bought the farm for 5M, the provincial portion of my impairment is hundreds of millions.)

 

[nobbie48]

Absolutely. This highway should of been built 20 years ago. It seriously feels like nobody in government realizes how terrible our transit and highway system is. When we throw condos up in every free square inch of land nobody asks questions or debates it, but when a small new highway is proposed to relieve congestion, it’s a huge environmental and cost issue. Lmao this province is going downhill

Population growth, education, infrastructure and housing in Canada is as well planned as the Covid 19 vaccine acquisition and distribution. The three levels of government are like a kindergarten mob fighting over a box of crayons. Expect broken crayons.

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