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New Highway 413 Yea or Nay?
- Thread starter Roadghost
- Start date
Winnipeg did it long ago, the perimeter highway. A 15 mile diameter ring around the city so taking the Trans-Canada didn't mean going through the city. They haven't quite filled in the circle.
Surface roads across the 'peg jog all over the place at rivers and railroad tracks. The perimeter just seems the long way round.
Before the 401 the route through Toronto was highway 2, Lakeshore Road. Numerous ferries would take you and your car across to the USA because the drive from say, Coburg, pre 401, pre skyway bridges, pre QEW was an all day ordeal.
My centre-of-the-universe comment was to think about Canada becoming something other than a fifty mile wide strip mall along the northern US border.
IMO the proposed 413 just makes a bigger GTA. A free highway from, for example, Barrie to Sarnia invites growth outside of the GTA. It would have to be free or really cheap. If it's priced like the 407 the economics aren't there.
Transportation and economic development go hand in hand. Everything that gets discussed uses the GTA hub concept.
If they had kept it and used it like the cash cow it has become, the income could have financed new highways where tolls wouldn't work.
Pre 407 I worked at Dixie & Eglinton. A manager lived in Markham. Sometimes his commute was three hours each way. He experimented with going north to highway 9, across and down. He was about to move to Oakville but then the company went WFH.
Trials
Well-known member
I drove through there on the way to an Ioco trial when the whole city was flooded. The KOA we were going to stay in was completely under water and the major bridges were being closed because the river was starting to flow over them. A practically flat chunk of land that straddles a meandering river flood plane was a heck of a silly place to build a city to begin with. One of the tallest geographical features you see when you drive through Winnipeg is the land fill site :|
https://nivervillecitizen.com/assets/articleImages/flood-map.jpg
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That should have been. But somebody got bribed / talked into selling it into private hands. And here we are. The only entity than can prevent you from renewing your license if you don’t pay their fee.
You can Replace Winnipeg with Windsor and achieve the same result.
According to my cousin who lives there, one year the person who was in charge of the floodway went on vacation, taking the system keys with him.
Some blame the problem partly on farmers. The farmers put in drainage tile so they can get onto the fields earlier in the spring. Unfortunately that means the water that would have slowly drained into the rivers happens faster than the rivers can deal with it. Manitoba has three seasons, Frozen, flooded and mosquito.
I heard it was to "Balance" the books. Like paying off your home mortgage with money borrowed from Vinnie No Neck at the pool hall. Yup, you're mortgage free.
That's what i thought, Harris government sold it.
This is who owns or leases it now
Lease Ownership
As of August 2019, ownership of the 407 ETR Concession Company Limited ("407 ETR"), the operator/manager of the highway, is as follows: Indirectly owned subsidiaries of Canada Pension Plan Investment Board 50.01% Cintra Global S.E., a subsidiary of Spanish firm Ferrovial S.A. 43.23% SNC Lavalin 6.76%
At least part of the loot keeps the CPP afloat.
A dozen or so years back I was riding around the states and ended up in Eastern Ohio on a Sunday afternoon. The place looked so good I thought it would be better enjoyed with the Mrs. at a later date. I clicked on the GPS Take-me-home and it said I'd be home 9:00. Not bad so I headed back instead of staying over.
Because of the 407 rates, I had set the GPS to keep me off toll roads. About 7:00 PM I saw a sign Buffalo 120 miles and at 60 MPH / a mile a minute there was no way I was going to get home at 9:00. I ignored the GPS and hopped on the NYST, getting to the border about 9:00 and the toll was less than $2.00. I later calculated the 407 fees for the distance and they were 10X.
When I got back I found the time problem. I had set the GPS to avoid tolls and the Buffalo - Fort Erie bridge was a toll. The shortest non toll route took me home via the Thousand Islands, arriving home at 9:00 AM the next day.
I've handed in my 407 transponder. IIRC the lease was $35 a year to avoid photo fees but then they tacked on a $1.00 usage fee on top of the mileage. Licence to print money.
The one place I could justify the 407 grab was on the bike if traffic was heavy on the QEW or 401. 1500 Goldwings don't like sub 10 speeds and encroaching vehicles.
Because of the 407 rates, I had set the GPS to keep me off toll roads. About 7:00 PM I saw a sign Buffalo 120 miles and at 60 MPH / a mile a minute there was no way I was going to get home at 9:00. I ignored the GPS and hopped on the NYST, getting to the border about 9:00 and the toll was less than $2.00. I later calculated the 407 fees for the distance and they were 10X.
When I got back I found the time problem. I had set the GPS to avoid tolls and the Buffalo - Fort Erie bridge was a toll. The shortest non toll route took me home via the Thousand Islands, arriving home at 9:00 AM the next day.
I've handed in my 407 transponder. IIRC the lease was $35 a year to avoid photo fees but then they tacked on a $1.00 usage fee on top of the mileage. Licence to print money.
The one place I could justify the 407 grab was on the bike if traffic was heavy on the QEW or 401. 1500 Goldwings don't like sub 10 speeds and encroaching vehicles.
AllistonGT
Well-known member
We've tried this and had good results but not every time. Two bikes perfectly side by side at the cameras. Only one of us gets charged. If a different one gets a pic taken on exit then neither gets charged. Cameras have to register you entering and exiting or no charge.
They used to charge you for one exit if they saw you getting on but didn't know where you got off. I don't know if I ever had a situation where they saw me get off but not on, same logic could be applied but I have no idea if it was.
My plate is factory mount under my top box "beer box" in harley terms. So it's not visible to the cameras
sburns
Well-known member
I did a trip down to Pittsburgh a few years back (pre moto days) and stayed just outside of it. Also found myself on a toll road. I was expecting something inexpensive like in Niagara or Buffalo, like you mentioned. Nope it was expensive, like $12. Took an alternative after that. But ya most of the time they are peanuts compared to the 407.
Aens
Well-known member
If they knew why, they would hold on for a better offer. Happened many times.
I have never heard of anyone getting double. Maybe slightly over market but the first offer is normally the best and it goes down quickly if the developer is unhappy with you. Normally, the advantage is a transaction free from conditions as the developer doesn't care what condition your house is in. Thinking you can holdout and generate a lottery win normally ends up with you on an orphaned piece of land surrounded by new development worth less than the initial offer and not easy to sell.
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