Can we deport her so she is someone else's problem then???
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Wynne down to 11% rating/popularity. Lowest ever. Can she get into single digits?
- Thread starter -D-
- Start date
This right here is your problem. There are dozens, maybe hundreds or even millions of variations on 'normal', but 'extreme' only comes in two flavours. And while extremists aren't the majority, they turn out to vote disproportionately compared to the average Joe (no offense Bass). So by being true to your normal self, you'd only attract the support of that portion of 'normal' voters who can relate to you, leaving a big chunk of voter pie on the table.
This is a problem baked into our first past the post voting system, which requires candidates to compromise themselves (the bad kind of compromise) as successfully as possible in their campaign in order to gain the most votes. The more successfully deceitful they are, the more they are rewarded - with a majority government. In a proportional representative election, you can win with only a handful of supporters. There's still some reward to dishonesty but it's far less. Candidates can be genuine, including genuinely extremist, and then take the voice they've been given in parliament to represent their causes and forge compromises (the good kind) with other parties to try and achieve the best outcome they can muster. Extremists are often unwilling to compromise, which limits their ability to set their agenda.
If you read politicians in this light, you can get a better understanding of the distortions they weave, their motivations behind them, and how much they truly believe some of the things they say versus simply pandering for votes. If they don't pander, they lose. It's that simple.
Well, here we go with the vote buying.
Premiere Wynne to cut hydro rates by 25%:
https://www.thestar.com/news/queens...-wynne-to-cut-hydro-rates-by-25-per-cent.html
Although I'm not going to complain (The $500-$600/month hydro bills last summer did sting) this will affect the outcome of the election. The very same people who will be all "Hallelujah, Ms Wynne saved me a whole bunch of money every month, bless her heart!" will be the same ones who blindly forget that it was her own party who got them to that point to begin with, and will then vote for her again.
I know the grid needed investment and that was going to cost money, but as is typical for any government project much was wasted.
And much of the cost was due to the green energy incentives. Again, I'm not necessarily against those, but whoever decided on the rates that the MicroFIT producers were going to get paid in the beginning was clearly on crack, and now those utterly STUPID decisions are coming back to bite us in the ***. I used to have a customer with a moderate sized solar installation on the roof of his (sizeable) workshop/business - he told me he was getting paid 80 cents per Kilowatt hour (!!!!) for his generation, and this was the standard going rate in the early days of the project, and countless thousands of projects will be collecting that rate for many, many years until their initial contracts expire. He always laughed how much his cheques were every month which on a good sunny month offset his own electricity bills from his house about 8 to 1.
Yes, a profit would be needed to get this sort of generation up and going, but to make the rate so unfathomably high that people are laughing all the way to the bank at the expense of the rest of us was foolhardy.
THIS is the sort of stupidity we are all paying for now along with the sometimes questionable and poorly managed grid upgrades.
Premiere Wynne to cut hydro rates by 25%:
https://www.thestar.com/news/queens...-wynne-to-cut-hydro-rates-by-25-per-cent.html
Although I'm not going to complain (The $500-$600/month hydro bills last summer did sting) this will affect the outcome of the election. The very same people who will be all "Hallelujah, Ms Wynne saved me a whole bunch of money every month, bless her heart!" will be the same ones who blindly forget that it was her own party who got them to that point to begin with, and will then vote for her again.
I know the grid needed investment and that was going to cost money, but as is typical for any government project much was wasted.
And much of the cost was due to the green energy incentives. Again, I'm not necessarily against those, but whoever decided on the rates that the MicroFIT producers were going to get paid in the beginning was clearly on crack, and now those utterly STUPID decisions are coming back to bite us in the ***. I used to have a customer with a moderate sized solar installation on the roof of his (sizeable) workshop/business - he told me he was getting paid 80 cents per Kilowatt hour (!!!!) for his generation, and this was the standard going rate in the early days of the project, and countless thousands of projects will be collecting that rate for many, many years until their initial contracts expire. He always laughed how much his cheques were every month which on a good sunny month offset his own electricity bills from his house about 8 to 1.
Yes, a profit would be needed to get this sort of generation up and going, but to make the rate so unfathomably high that people are laughing all the way to the bank at the expense of the rest of us was foolhardy.
THIS is the sort of stupidity we are all paying for now along with the sometimes questionable and poorly managed grid upgrades.
Riceburner
Well-known member
I'm not of any affiliation. I won't thank the Liberals for giving back what they "took" in the first place. See how that works? Take a big chunk, give back a little bit and we should be thankful? Not a freaking chance.
Kri$han
Well-known member
You better stop voting then LOL... I scratch my ballot almost everytime, and based on the last election, I think that trend is rising.
There's a lot of themes and ideas already in this thread that are a detriment to the democratic process, and politics as a whole.
Flipflopping: WTF is wrong with changing your mind? The idea that people not allowed to change their position on a given subject is complete BS. What if a politician was presented with newly gleaned information that changed his/her mind? It shouldn't be called "flip flopping" unless they change their minds TWICE (as in, back to their original stance)
"my vote doesnt count, because I think everyone around me isn't voting the way i want to": Also a nonsensical idea. The point of a democracy is to choose the party/person that most aligns with your values. In the last provincial election, most people wanted NDP to win, but they "strategically" voted Liberal in order to prevent the conservatives from winning (we were mad at them then), now look at us with this Wynne moron. Well done, asshats.
Its true that if we really want to understand why our political system is so flawed, we really need to look no further than ourselves -and moreso- our actions.
BigEvilDoer
Well-known member
What a total waste. What you should do is DECLINE your ballot. Don't ruin it.
If enough people in Ontario would actually do this, the political parties would have no choice but to reform the way they operate.
By declining your ballot, you're effectively saying that none of the slime ball parties are good enough for your vote.
-D-
Banned
I think you are wrong about that and here is why.
They know voter turn out is low therefore they want to keep it that way because only their hardcore base WILL turn out to vote.
You don't want reform because you might cause some voters to shift or stop voting where as the people not voting will continue to not vote.
Race to the bottom.
We keep saying LEFT and RIGHT, how about a new party...the CENTRALISTS...after all our head is located in the middle...hmmm
lol
I'm reminded about one of the very things that has bothered me from the start about Brown - his flipflop on the whole sex-ed in schools situation. It's a GOOD thing and I don't care about all the whacked parents who are afraid that little johnny's virgin ears will be forever tarnished if he dares hear how babies are made.
That said, I don't want to vote for a politician who shows 100% support for it (to use but one topic) in the election only to have them get elected and then suddenly "change their mind" and cancel the entire sex-ed program to placate the overzealous religious crazies who completely object to it, or dumb it down to the point where it's the "birds and the bees" crap they spooned out in the 70's which is useless in today's realities.
I don't want to vote for a politician who states they believe in science based facts in the election, only to have them get elected and then suddenly "change their mind" that they're going to make decisions based on religion or special interest groups instead, science or facts be damned.
I don't want to vote for a politician that states "No new taxes!" only to have them "change their mind" a year in and suddenly create new taxes. Sound familiar to anyone?
Do you get my drift?
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BigEvilDoer
Well-known member
Thing is, if you get a majority of people declining their ballot, it will say something. I'd love to see an organized push for people to decline their ballots - simply to make a statement to the political parties we have - that being that we're sick of their lies and bullcrap. That *SHOULD* (no guarantees with these con artists though) have some effect and cause a shake up.
You can't get two people in many areas of the province to agree that the earth is round, so yeah...good luck with that.
Riceburner
Well-known member
They don't care. It just means you aren't voting for their opponents, so less margin for them to get to win. You don't think the parties are aware that lots of people don't care for any of the parties?
If 50% don't vote or decline and my party gets 30%, I'm in charge and screw all 70% of the population, I'll do what I want. AND if it happens again after I've blown billions on non-existent items and still get in again, I'm even more in charge and will do more of what I please and cater to the 30% that voted for me. Wanna make a change? Don't vote the same idiots in again.
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Kri$han
Well-known member
Yeah, I'm using scratch and decline here synonymously: I hand it back to them and say "please decline". Can't do this for federal elections, yet though.
I see that you took my reply as an opportunity to elaborate, rather than addressing the idea of labeling people as flip-flopper's, so I'll do the same:
No amount of analysis into a candidate can EVER predict what a he or she will do once he or she gets into office.
What I am saying is that if a candidate changes their stance on any particular matter BEFORE they are elected, they shouldn't be so easily labelled as a "flip-flopper", and the idea of labeling people this way is disgusting and illogical and serves the opposite purpose of understanding that human beings can learn and change. It like you all expect non-human-like behavior from your candidates, then act all surprised when they don't act like humans.
I have also long suspected that campaigning politicians make promises based on their ideals, but once they get into office, they are presented with NEW information they didn't have access to when campaigning, and THATS why they break so many promises.
Wynne and the Liberals have to go, it is time to give some of the other pigs some time at the trough.
The scary part about the PCs is not just Patrick Brown flip-flopping (and I hope it is an epiphany, if so I applaud his change) it is that a significant portion of their core support and a significant number of the MPPs are old school social conservatives (AKA backwards bigots), they really need to clean house. We have to remember we do not vote for a Governor here (that will serve out his/her term), we are voting in a party (parliamentary system). The party can change that leader (kick out the new and improved Patrick Brown and replace him with say Monte McNaughton or the like) and change direction any day after they take power. That is what scares me with them. I see this as a vote for which party is less broken, Liberals or PCs?
The Liberals must be feeling the pressure, things like blocking road tolls in TO, lowering hydro rates, maybe even a Harper/Harris style balanced budget (fake one by selling assets) etc. are taking the wind out of the sails of the opposition parties. If they do all that, boot out Wynne, they might keep their spot at the trough, scary stuff.
2018 election debate:
Patrick Brown: I will lower hydro rates!
New Liberal Leader: We already lowered them.
PB: I will balance the budget!
NLL: It is balanced.
PB: I will block TO road tolls!
NLL: They are already blocked.
PB: I will reform the OMB!
NLL: We already reforming the OMB.
PB: I will increasing funding for transit!
NLL: We already increased funding for transit.
PB: I will sell off hydro!
NLL: We already sold off hydro, that's how we balanced the budget.
and on it goes.
The scary part about the PCs is not just Patrick Brown flip-flopping (and I hope it is an epiphany, if so I applaud his change) it is that a significant portion of their core support and a significant number of the MPPs are old school social conservatives (AKA backwards bigots), they really need to clean house. We have to remember we do not vote for a Governor here (that will serve out his/her term), we are voting in a party (parliamentary system). The party can change that leader (kick out the new and improved Patrick Brown and replace him with say Monte McNaughton or the like) and change direction any day after they take power. That is what scares me with them. I see this as a vote for which party is less broken, Liberals or PCs?
The Liberals must be feeling the pressure, things like blocking road tolls in TO, lowering hydro rates, maybe even a Harper/Harris style balanced budget (fake one by selling assets) etc. are taking the wind out of the sails of the opposition parties. If they do all that, boot out Wynne, they might keep their spot at the trough, scary stuff.
2018 election debate:
Patrick Brown: I will lower hydro rates!
New Liberal Leader: We already lowered them.
PB: I will balance the budget!
NLL: It is balanced.
PB: I will block TO road tolls!
NLL: They are already blocked.
PB: I will reform the OMB!
NLL: We already reforming the OMB.
PB: I will increasing funding for transit!
NLL: We already increased funding for transit.
PB: I will sell off hydro!
NLL: We already sold off hydro, that's how we balanced the budget.
and on it goes.
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-D-
Banned
the people in this province are truly sheeple
they are not interested in supporting grass roots people in their neighborhoods, they are not interested in putting the time in to help out and the money (even $20)...they sit back and let things happen then pick from who is on the ballot and then complain when their taxes go up and services cut.
haven't you noticed the the new identity and segmented politics occurring here?
another curious thing...you can be a cabinet leader without the experience of the job vs. the workers who had to get a degree or relative experience to get the job in that area...I have no clue about transportation/infrastructure but hey let me decide on what happens...hmmm...streetcars and LRT's everywhereeeeeee...oh bicycle lanes too.
they are not interested in supporting grass roots people in their neighborhoods, they are not interested in putting the time in to help out and the money (even $20)...they sit back and let things happen then pick from who is on the ballot and then complain when their taxes go up and services cut.
haven't you noticed the the new identity and segmented politics occurring here?
another curious thing...you can be a cabinet leader without the experience of the job vs. the workers who had to get a degree or relative experience to get the job in that area...I have no clue about transportation/infrastructure but hey let me decide on what happens...hmmm...streetcars and LRT's everywhereeeeeee...oh bicycle lanes too.
Some more food for thought, in many professions you need to pass a law and ethics exam (or something like it) to practice your profession. Maybe Canada should implement the same for politicians. Before you can run as for MPP/MLA or MP you need to be a Licensed Professional/Certified Politician which includes the above mentioned law and ethics exam.
Now that would not prevent the criminal activity BUT they would have no ignorance excuse. They could have their LPP/LCP license suspended for minor breaches which results in a no pay suspension from parliament or have their licenses revoked, resulting in a permanent suspension with no chance to run again. Have a non-partisan or multi-partisan body enforce it.
Now that would not prevent the criminal activity BUT they would have no ignorance excuse. They could have their LPP/LCP license suspended for minor breaches which results in a no pay suspension from parliament or have their licenses revoked, resulting in a permanent suspension with no chance to run again. Have a non-partisan or multi-partisan body enforce it.
I doubt you're suggesting that every time a politician changes their mind, they're applying sound reasoning based on new evidence? Clearly when a change happens all of a sudden, on a matter of significant importance, and at a politically opportune time, you don't have to be lifelong cynic to recognize that as a pure 'flip flop' for the sake of increasing their political power.
Sure, many people use the term inappropriately when an informed new look at an issue could just as easily explain the change, but I haven't seen anyone misuse the flip flop label in this thread yet.
Also, the point of a democracy isn't freedom to choose your representative but making sure your voice is represented in government. FPTP does that poorly. It's a system that was set up for a much simpler nation with only two political parties, and it's retained those limitations. That's precisely why people don't choose amongst the dozens of candidates they might prefer: they know that the ballot only works for 2 options. So when given a 3-part choice of Mulcair, Trudeau, or Harper they know the real choice is 2 parts: Harper or non-Harper. As soon as Trudeau took a lead over Mulcair in the polls, it was his election to lose.
There is no such thing as strategic voting in a PR system.
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