winning is bad

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invictus43 said:
It's really more of a parenting problem. I'm not sure anyone here has seen hockey or soccer games for kids. It's really a little embarassing and makes most normal people want to re-evaluate their kid's participation. At what age is it ok to push your kid to win at all costs? There are many train wrecks that result from this mentality. I've seen hockey parents yelling at their 7 year old saying "You wanna be a loser your whole life? You were terrible!! I'm embarassed by you!!" Is that a good thing to be telling your 7 year old? The parents are simply too involved. It'd be nice if we banned parents from watching their kids..I'm sure the kids would be a lot better off. I actually listened to a dad before my game on Wednesday night, watching his 8 year old practice, saying how his kid was clearly the best player on the team, how he deserves more ice time, he won't get noticed, his game is like Rick Nash's..like, seriously?? He's EIGHT!!! Sigh..
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Try being a referee sometime. I've had a dad going absolutely ape-poop behind the glass, clearly berating his son (centerman) for not trying hard enough. Before dropping the puck I asked the poor kid (Atom AAA level - 10 year olds) if I should kick his dad out... he sighed deeply, clearly unhappy and on the edge of tears. Good enough for me to eject the parent.

The abuse shelled out at kids by their parents is incredible, all 'cause they think their kid is going to be their meal ticket when the child reaches the NHL. Sorry parent, gigantic odds say your kid won't make it...
 
Bigevildoer said:
Try being a referee sometime. I've had a dad going absolutely ape-poop behind the glass, clearly berating his son (centerman) for not trying hard enough. Before dropping the puck I asked the poor kid (Atom AAA level - 10 year olds) if I should kick his dad out... he sighed deeply, clearly unhappy and on the edge of tears. Good enough for me to eject the parent.

The abuse shelled out at kids by their parents is incredible, all 'cause they think their kid is going to be their meal ticket when the child reaches the NHL. Sorry parent, gigantic odds say your kid won't make it...
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OK, I’ll forgive you for not being a parent and making these outrageous judgments on how to properly parent an athletic child but weare talking AAA hockey here. Kids at this level can play however kids at this age also like to screw the dog in the effort department as well. Now if you’re a parent who's driving to 5am practices, tournaments across the country and turning your life upside down all while shelling out over $5,000 just to play at this level and you see your kid dogging it out there, not giving it their best effort every time, which on the other hand forces you to ride the same crappy 10 yr old broken down motorcycle because your talented kid dreams of playing in the NHL one day...damn right Iwould be ****** off! That's a tremendous amount of financial sacrifice just to give a child a crack at something spectacular with a 0.01% chance of making it. Then again I'm talking AAA not house league. These kids are getting groomed for the pros or semi pro hockey one day and will be subject to this "behavior" from people who are not their parents. AAA is serious and should be taken as such, even if you're 10yrs old.

Speaking from experience I could play soccer pretty decent as a kid but had my dad as a coach. He was just like the father you described and had me in tears on more than one occasion from the time I was 5 yrs old until 11. It stopped when I told him I wouldn't play again if he was my coach. That year he coached his team and I played on another. Our team won the championship his didn't. The next year I was asked to play at a higher level but decide to quit because it just wasn't fun for me anymore. I couldn't deal with the pressure he put on me. I think that's the big picture everyone is missing here...kids are not prisoners forced against their will to play a game. They can quit anytime they want. Let’s lay off the parents a little or atleast respect where they are coming from. If kids want to play at the highest level they should be subjective to the pressures they will need to play under or they can do what I did and walk away saving their parent the thousands of additional dollars it takes to compete at that level.

Now if it’s not AAA...I would agree with you and would speak to that parent afterward.
 
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What about those who become so obsessed with "winning", that they will do so at all costs i.e. cheat, lie, and backstab their way to the top. It's the hard work and the ensuing reward that needs to be praised and encouraged with youths, and not necessarily the title itself.
 
short stop said:
What about those who become so obsessed with "winning", that they will do so at all costs i.e. cheat, lie, and backstab their way to the top. It's the hard work and the ensuing reward that needs to be praised and encouraged with youths, and not necessarily the title itself.
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I think Invictus and I have already discussed both extremes of the competitive spectrum.

On one end you get
- Winning is everything
- If you aint first, you're last
- Win at all costs... whatever.. it.. takes.

On the other end you get
- Losers get their feelings hurt
- Lets not keep score and just let them have fun
- Everyone gets a medal/ribbon just for showing up

Both of those options are stupid. Hard work should be encouraged and recognized but not to the extent as described above. There's more to it than just winning. Positive reinforcement works far better than negative. Whether you're talking about the workplace, sports or parenting it remains true.
 
killerkeith said:
OK, I’ll forgive you for not being a parent and making these outrageous judgments on how to properly parent an athletic child but weare talking AAA hockey here. Kids at this level can play however kids at this age also like to screw the dog in the effort department as well. Now if you’re a parent who's driving to 5am practices, tournaments across the country and turning your life upside down all while shelling out over $5,000 just to play at this level and you see your kid dogging it out there, not giving it their best effort every time, which on the other hand forces you to ride the same crappy 10 yr old broken down motorcycle because your talented kid dreams of playing in the NHL one day...damn right Iwould be ****** off! That's a tremendous amount of financial sacrifice just to give a child a crack at something spectacular with a 0.01% chance of making it. Then again I'm talking AAA not house league. These kids are getting groomed for the pros or semi pro hockey one day and will be subject to this "behavior" from people who are not their parents. AAA is serious and should be taken as such, even if you're 10yrs old.

Speaking from experience I could play soccer pretty decent as a kid but had my dad as a coach. He was just like the father you described and had me in tears on more than one occasion from the time I was 5 yrs old until 11. It stopped when I told him I wouldn't play again if he was my coach. That year he coached his team and I played on another. Our team won the championship his didn't. The next year I was asked to play at a higher level but decide to quit because it just wasn't fun for me anymore. I couldn't deal with the pressure he put on me. I think that's the big picture everyone is missing here...kids are not prisoners forced against their will to play a game. They can quit anytime they want. Let’s lay off the parents a little or atleast respect where they are coming from. If kids want to play at the highest level they should be subjective to the pressures they will need to play under or they can do what I did and walk away saving their parent the thousands of additional dollars it takes to compete at that level.

Now if it’s not AAA...I would agree with you and would speak to that parent afterward.
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And you never wonder if you'd still be playing soccer now had things turned out differently? Or what if your dad refused to let you play for another team? Or what if he let you play, but then there'd be tension for you. When parents are shelling out thousands + their time, it's not exactly easy for the kid to just up and quit one day when they don't enjoy it anymore. These worst cases usually stem from parents who try to live vicariously through their children. And unfortunately, kids are eager to please so they don't always know that they can quit.
 
Shaking my head reading this. If it wasn't for competative sports and being pushed to do better by my father I wouldn't be the person I am now.

If you kid is sitting on the bench and they look miserable it's time to take them out and try something new.
 
invictus43 said:
I was thinking of Jennifer Cappriati, or Tiger Woods, or the Williams sisters, or any NCAA athlete who quit school after first year to play in pro sports. There's nothing wrong with winning, but you have to keep a balanced perspective.
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Tony Alessi is the ultimate moto (hockey) dad. I think DeCoster quit Suzuki and took the position of Race Director at KTM just so he could stick it in Tony's face and fire his son Mike again.
 
killerkeith said:
OK, I’ll forgive you for not being a parent and making these outrageous judgments on how to properly parent an athletic child but weare talking AAA hockey here.
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Sorry, but WTF are you talking about?!? I never once made any comments on how to properly parent an athletic child. I simply said that "I've had a dad going absolutely ape-poop behind the glass" and "The abuse shelled out at kids by their parents is incredible, all 'cause they think their kid is going to be their meal ticket when the child reaches the NHL. Sorry parent, gigantic odds say your kid won't make it..."
Not one word on how to properly raise a child.

A kid is a kid. Plain and simple They have off days, just as much as we do.
Now, you've been yelled at and berated by your dad -- was it fun for you to play soccer? Obviously not, as you went to play for another team. Now, using that as a reference point, do you think this centerman is having fun? If the dad is freaking in the stands, do you think it won't continue in the car on the way home?
I used to race sailboats with my dad until eventually I quit because I wasn't having fun anymore. Having my dad get angry with me 'cause of what he thought were mistakes during the race completely sapped any enthusiasm for the sport I had. Mind you, when it came to playing AA rep hockey for most of my youth, you couldn't have asked for a more supportive guy.

To add in some back story for my original post, the centerman I was commenting about was clearly outmatched by the opposing centerman, and the home team was using their last change in order to get this match up shift after shift. I believe this kid was trying his hardest. His parent couldn't identify that the opposing player simply was better and chose to verbally abuse his son, jump around (literally), bang on the glass like a baboon and generally carry on like a moron.

As for playing AAA, yes, it's a huge financial and time commitment. BUT IT'S THE PARENTS' CHOICE TO DO SO. Just because they are AAA parents, it doesn't give them the right to belittle their kids in front of an arena full of their child's friends, other parents and fans. If they can't handle the stress of being a AAA parent, then simply don't do it.

There's a TON of ego at the AAA level. Parents will live vicariously through their children when given the possibility to do so (that's my opinion).

Disagree if you wish. If you do, please, go to any arena where a AAA game is being played on a Saturday afternoon and watch the parents. You'll be dismayed by some of the behaviour that goes on at just about every game.




killerkeith said:
Kids at this level can play however kids at this age also like to screw the dog in the effort department as well. Now if you’re a parent who's driving to 5am practices, tournaments across the country and turning your life upside down all while shelling out over $5,000 just to play at this level and you see your kid dogging it out there, not giving it their best effort every time, which on the other hand forces you to ride the same crappy 10 yr old broken down motorcycle because your talented kid dreams of playing in the NHL one day...damn right Iwould be ****** off! That's a tremendous amount of financial sacrifice just to give a child a crack at something spectacular with a 0.01% chance of making it. Then again I'm talking AAA not house league. These kids are getting groomed for the pros or semi pro hockey one day and will be subject to this "behavior" from people who are not their parents. AAA is serious and should be taken as such, even if you're 10yrs old.

Speaking from experience I could play soccer pretty decent as a kid but had my dad as a coach. He was just like the father you described and had me in tears on more than one occasion from the time I was 5 yrs old until 11. It stopped when I told him I wouldn't play again if he was my coach. That year he coached his team and I played on another. Our team won the championship his didn't. The next year I was asked to play at a higher level but decide to quit because it just wasn't fun for me anymore. I couldn't deal with the pressure he put on me. I think that's the big picture everyone is missing here...kids are not prisoners forced against their will to play a game. They can quit anytime they want. Let’s lay off the parents a little or atleast respect where they are coming from. If kids want to play at the highest level they should be subjective to the pressures they will need to play under or they can do what I did and walk away saving their parent the thousands of additional dollars it takes to compete at that level.
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killerkeith said:
Now if it’s not AAA...I would agree with you and would speak to that parent afterward.
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I think what some ppl are confusing is bad parenting and competition.

Blame the competition instead of the parent. With some of the points brought up, its just a bad parent. It doesn't matter if its in sports itself the parent is going to react the same way in life, and treat his kids the same way in some part in the kids life
 
knowledge said:
And you never wonder if you'd still be playing soccer now had things turned out differently? Or what if your dad refused to let you play for another team? Or what if he let you play, but then there'd be tension for you. When parents are shelling out thousands + their time, it's not exactly easy for the kid to just up and quit one day when they don't enjoy it anymore. These worst cases usually stem from parents who try to live vicariously through their children. And unfortunately, kids are eager to please so they don't always know that they can quit.
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Oh that last year I played was still horrible with everything going on and even though I was on a winning team. I still didn't like playing very much and my dad and my relationship with him suffered more so I asked myself why am I even doing this anymore? It took a lot of guts and growing up to have that talk with him but he understood. Sports still needs to be fun and it wasn't anymore. Oh sure my dad was not helping my enjoyment of the game, but sports is only fun when you win. The end result are losers quit and the winners rise through the ranks just like in life. I'm fine with how things turned out and I'm fine with pushing your kids to achieve their goals. Today I have a strong appreciation of the game, a little skill I can teach my own kids but never had the real talent it takes to really make a go of it.
 
killerkeith said:
Oh that last year I played was still horrible with everything going on and even though I was on a winning team. I still didn't like playing very much and my dad and my relationship with him suffered more so I asked myself why am I even doing this anymore? It took a lot of guts and growing up to have that talk with him but he understood. Sports still needs to be fun and it wasn't anymore. Oh sure my dad was not helping my enjoyment of the game, but sports is only fun when you win. The end result are losers quit and the winners rise through the ranks just like in life. I'm fine with how things turned out and I'm fine with pushing your kids to achieve their goals. Today I have a strong appreciation of the game, a little skill I can teach my own kids but never had the real talent it takes to really make a go of it.
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Now that's a great and thought out post.
Your dad probably wasn't happy about you playing on another team, you didn't like playing on another team, and this caused more stress between you.
Good on you for sorting that out at a young age - most kids would never walk that path.
You learned lots, and it sounds like you won't make the same mistake with your kids... good stuff!!!
 
Bigevildoer said:
Sorry, but WTF are you talking about?!? I never once made any comments on how to properly parent an athletic child. I simply said that "I've had a dad going absolutely ape-poop behind the glass" and "The abuse shelled out at kids by their parents is incredible, all 'cause they think their kid is going to be their meal ticket when the child reaches the NHL. Sorry parent, gigantic odds say your kid won't make it..."
Not one word on how to properly raise a child.

A kid is a kid. Plain and simple They have off days, just as much as we do.
Now, you've been yelled at and berated by your dad -- was it fun for you to play soccer? Obviously not, as you went to play for another team. Now, using that as a reference point, do you think this centerman is having fun? If the dad is freaking in the stands, do you think it won't continue in the car on the way home?
I used to race sailboats with my dad until eventually I quit because I wasn't having fun anymore. Having my dad get angry with me 'cause of what he thought were mistakes during the race completely sapped any enthusiasm for the sport I had. Mind you, when it came to playing AA rep hockey for most of my youth, you couldn't have asked for a more supportive guy.

To add in some back story for my original post, the centerman I was commenting about was clearly outmatched by the opposing centerman, and the home team was using their last change in order to get this match up shift after shift. I believe this kid was trying his hardest. His parent couldn't identify that the opposing player simply was better and chose to verbally abuse his son, jump around (literally), bang on the glass like a baboon and generally carry on like a moron.

As for playing AAA, yes, it's a huge financial and time commitment. BUT IT'S THE PARENTS' CHOICE TO DO SO. Just because they are AAA parents, it doesn't give them the right to belittle their kids in front of an arena full of their child's friends, other parents and fans. If they can't handle the stress of being a AAA parent, then simply don't do it.

There's a TON of ego at the AAA level. Parents will live vicariously through their children when given the possibility to do so (that's my opinion).

Disagree if you wish. If you do, please, go to any arena where a AAA game is being played on a Saturday afternoon and watch the parents. You'll be dismayed by some of the behaviour that goes on at just about every game.
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I had this awesome response but my computer crashed and logged me out.
I'll try and summarize as best I can cause I'm not typing that **** out again.
Keep in mind I am only referring to top flight competition here.

It's always the kids who ultimately decide if they are going to play and their skill and play under pressure determine at what level. Those kids picked to play AAA need to be put through the ringer physically and emotionally to see who can take it. It's all apart of the process to be the best of the best. What I think we are both talking about is at what age do you start this process?
It's certainly seems acceptable to verbally abuse NHL players because their adults and make millions
It's certainly seems acceptable to verbally abuse CHL/OHL/WHL players as they are just one step from the show even though some of these kids are still 16 yrs old...
So as a Ref at what age should we expose these AAA kids to what it's really like out there and the real pressure that comes with the territory?

Now if you want to talk about the ******* parents doing this at the house league level that's a different argument.
 
killerkeith said:
Keep in mind I am only referring to top flight competition here.

Now if you want to talk about the ******* parents doing this at the house league level that's a different argument.
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I googled for that article and came up with another article in the same paper about some rec soccer league where they were complaining that they stop keeping score after one team is up 5 goals (very common in beer hockey leagues..). The "kid" was 17 and the dad was complaining the stats were "inaccurate" because they didn't keep the proper score. Like, seriously? It's a rec league!! It's like the guys I played beer league with and they would phone into the league the day after the game because they didn't get an assist on a goal..and they were seriously angry about it!! Jesus, get a life..
 
killerkeith said:
It's always the kids who ultimately decide if they are going to play and their skill and play under pressure determine at what level.
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Yes and no. Kids are routinely pushed into sports if their parents feel they (kid) can do it. Co-worker of mine has such a kid - no interest in playing AAA hockey, but has the talent to do it. Wants to play A/AA with the rest of his buddies. Parent pushed until he finally played AAA. Average player for that caliber, but he's not happy there, and is only doing it to make his parents happy. The kid realizes he's not going to make a career out of it (at 13 years old), but the parents are still hoping he's going to be the proverbial old-age security ticket. Pretty common occurance.


killerkeith said:
Those kids picked to play AAA need to be put through the ringer physically and emotionally to see who can take it. It's all apart of the process to be the best of the best. What I think we are both talking about is at what age do you start this process?
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Sure - start giving them the mental tests around 10 years old, but I don't mean berate them and make them completely embarrassed to admit that you are their parent. Let them know when they've performed well, and when they haven't. Quite a few kids that I have known over the years have simply quit a sport when they lost interest due to parental misbehaviour or abuse. So, that's gone overboard. There's a fine balance between corrective encouragement and abuse.


killerkeith said:
So as a Ref at what age should we expose these AAA kids to what it's really like out there and the real pressure that comes with the territory?
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As above, start around 10. But not over the top abuse. You can't expect a 10 year old to be able to cope with the same abuse/real world as Junior or NHL player.
If you want abuse in order to toughen them up mentally, sign them up to be a referee. (on a side note, Hockey Canada loses approximately 8K-10K referees each year due to verbal abuse of fans and coaching staff). Not trying to say that I'm mentally tough, but the abuse officials in just about any minor sport is excessive, and your kid will either throw in towel or learn to deal with it very quickly.

Actually, I've always wondered why it's socially acceptable to turn into animals as soon as you walk through the doors of a hockey rink or any other sporting facility. Makes no sense to me at all.
 
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int15 said:
Was that the article you were referring to? They seem to go a lot further than stop keeping score...

[URL]http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/06/01/win-a-soccer-game-by-more-than-five-points-and-you-lose-ottawa-league-says/

[/URL]That's a weird way to teach kids that efforts can be rewarding.
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I don't think that was the specific article, but that's the same incident. I stand by my statement, it's a rec league, get a life. The competition can be so unbalanced it's ridiculous.
 
caboose483 said:
You're talking about the opposite extreme that I am. It's the middle ground that is ideal.
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Exactly. I think only the extreme viewpoints have been presented here.

The reality is that it's more important to participate, to try your best, than it is to win. But winning is still extremely important. It's as if people think that if they remove 'winning' from the equation then kids will appreciate participation part of it more, but it doesn't work that way. At the same time, kids who lose shouldn't be made to feel bad about it as long as they gave it a solid try, and hopefully learned something from the loss.

Middle ground.
 
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