Will the real Pierre Poilievre please stand up?

[backmarkerducati]

On a related note ... why is infant mortality in Canada significantly lower than in the USA?

(there are quite a few countries with a lower rate than Canada has ... most of Europe + Japan + Australia + NZ + South Korea)

One theory is the likelihood of prenatal care finding and solving problems prior to birth. In the US lower income people without insurance or crappy insurance cannot afford to get the same level of care so it results in higher infant mortality rates. It is also one of the theories on overall outcomes in general (any age), things get caught earlier for a good section of the population here.

A study I read years back was interesting in the catching early context, Canada has a lower rate of cancer deaths than the US. We also have a lower rate of late stage cancer. The thesis is, it gets caught sooner here for a big chunk of the population so it is dealt with earlier on average. BUT the US had, at least at that time, better outcomes for late stage cancer....

Income disparity also results in poorer eating habits, nutrition, etc. so that will also play a big factor for the lowest income groups.

 

[timtune]

Except it wasn't a ridiculous blanket statement. It was a statement of fact. Uncontrovertible fact, actually. There was a time that the sun didn't set on the British empire and the same was true of the Roman empire in its day. These are facts. Both of those civilizations brought tremendous improvements in living quality, housing, water quality, healthcare, and many other innovations that the rest of the world did not have before them. They built the modern world as we know it today. These are facts. They don't care about your feelings or your fantasies.

How's the air down in the bottom of that rabbit hole?

 

[Brian P]

One theory is the likelihood of prenatal care finding and solving problems prior to birth. In the US lower income people without insurance or crappy insurance cannot afford to get the same level of care so it results in higher infant mortality rates. It is also one of the theories on overall outcomes in general (any age), things get caught earlier for a good section of the population here.

Income disparity also results in poorer eating habits, nutrition, etc. so that will also play a big factor for the lowest income groups.

Trying hard to not get politics into this, but let's just examine the implications of what a number of US states are doing which is, shall we say, adverse to the ability of certain prenatal specialists to be able to provide proper care to their patients, and to the ability of such patients to get proper care in certain circumstances.

What do you think that's going to do to infant mortality rates??

I really, really hope Canada does not follow this path. I haven't been able to discern whether PP intends to follow this path. (I also don't trust any public statements he has made ... but maybe that's just me.)

 

[PrivatePilot]

My guess is you work in a profession where your $5000 annual healthcare plan for your family would be paid by your employer.

Your shoulder would have been scheduled a week after diagnosis, saving you a year of agony. Same for the brain transplant and broken bones..

lol @ brain transplant, I just caught that. Spinal fusion, actually.

My shoulder didn't take too long after it was finally committed to as needing surgical intervention, a month or two at most as I recall it. It took a while getting there as it wasn't a full tear initially, so there was hope it would heal, got cortisone shots, all that usual stuff, but when it didn't get better after a period of trying, I was sent for another MRI and the reality became clear that it was never going to heal on its own.

Honestly, as somebody who has had probably a lot more exposure to the healthcare system from the perspective of several major surgeries over my lifespan, I have no complaints.

As for my job covering any sort of goldplated healthcare plan? Not a hope in hell, nobody in my field would have that sort of coverage for that matter. My wife on the other hand, absolutely, But that's what you get for firmly being in the highly educated white collar with decades of experience category.

Again, actually having family in the US and having spent my fair share of time there over the years, I know this sort of goldplated insurance is simply not the reality of a very significant portion of their population.

The realities between what you read about down there, and what many envision (or seem to think are the realities here despite never having needed our medical system for anything actually major or life threatening), as always, lays somewhere in the middle of those perceived views.

Ask how many Americans think they're healthcare or medical system as a whole is "excellent" and you'll find that it's not as rosy as many here envision. For those without those gold plated plans, it might as well not even exist in many cases as they just can't access it.

 

[Shaman]

How's the air down in the bottom of that rabbit hole?

Clean, clear and unambiguously right.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Trying hard to not get politics into this, but let's just examine the implications of what a number of US states are doing which is, shall we say, adverse to the ability of certain prenatal specialists to be able to provide proper care to their patients, and to the ability of such patients to get proper care in certain circumstances.

What do you think that's going to do to infant mortality rates??

I really, really hope Canada does not follow this path. I haven't been able to discern whether PP intends to follow this path. (I also don't trust any public statements he has made ... but maybe that's just me.)

My guess it is not going to make them better... but technically/statistically it could in theory make the numbers look better by increasing the number of births if the mortality numbers don't increase at the same rate. Sadly, someone that does not want the baby is unlikely to do the best for the baby prenatal so...

But that is all new enough to not impact the historical data and rates.

 

[crankcall]

The sun never sets on our Empire was first quoted by Charles 1 , Spanish Nobility in the 1600’s , the Brits stole it , like everything else . The Romans have been attributed to it, since they were vast and all conquering, till they weren’t. But at that point many were just conguring up the notion that the world was flat .


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com

 

[Shaman]

The sun never sets on our Empire was first quoted by Charles 1 , Spanish Nobility in the 1600’s , the Brits stole it , like everything else . The Romans have been attributed to it, since they were vast and all conquering, till they weren’t. But at that point many were just conguring up the notion that the world was flat .

Off-topic really, but that's the thing about Rome ... it never disappeared, its governance fell and left the historical world in a condition that took a long time to recover from. Most because its corrupt government spent recklessly, expanded greedily and had too much reliance on cheap (and slave) labor. It's own people felt elevated and no longer wanted to become soldiers or work humble jobs Any of this sound familiar in context with today's world?

It seems that all roads still lead to Rome.

 

[Mad Mike]

On a related note ... why is infant mortality in Canada significantly lower than in the USA?

(there are quite a few countries with a lower rate than Canada has ... most of Europe + Japan + Australia + NZ + South Korea)

They are about the same when you adjust for socioeconomic factors. If you compare the Canadian and US populations by education levels, income and race you will see the numbers are similar.

 

[nobbie48]

Canada is a great country but it's not hard to be great when we compare ourselves to the USA on selected topics. Similarly comparing ourselves to third world countries.

What bothers me the most is that 50 years ago I felt that Canada would always be there for me if things went wrong. Now I and many others fear the worst for many reasons.

BTW I noticed this thread may need a brake job. I hear a squealing noise.

 

[Mad Mike]

Trying hard to not get politics into this, but let's just examine the implications of what a number of US states are doing which is, shall we say, adverse to the ability of certain prenatal specialists to be able to provide proper care to their patients, and to the ability of such patients to get proper care in certain circumstances.

What do you think that's going to do to infant mortality rates??

I really, really hope Canada does not follow this path. I haven't been able to discern whether PP intends to follow this path. (I also don't trust any public statements he has made ... but maybe that's just me.)

I presume you're talking about SCOTUS returning abortion rules to each state, and the highly restrictive conditions and bans set by conservative states. Mortality rates will change in a predictable manner (negative). The number won't be shocking, but the stories will be heartbreaking.

It's inevitable that some wannabe PC backbencher will raise an eyebrow. Neither the public or the PC party has an appetite for adding federal restrictions on abortion or women's rights. Bringing up the what-if specter of it being a party platform issue is a red-herring.

 

[timtune]

Bringing up the what-if specter of it being a party platform issue is a red-herring.

As long as the right has a lock on the religious right how can anyone be certain? You simply can't be 100% certain.

 

[Evoex]

Not a snowballs chance in hell the PC open that can of worms.

 

[timtune]

Not a snowballs chance in hell the PC open that can of worms.

Until they can no longer placate the religious nutters.

 

[GreyGhost]

Until they can no longer placate the religious nutters.

Most of them went to PPC.

 

[nobbie48]

Hahahahaah.

That's a good one.

Around 50% of workers in the USA have employer based health insurance. The stats are easily found, just Google it.

Of that 50% a lot of those health insurance plans are bare bones - IE places like McDonalds, Walmart, Home Depot (etc etc etc) in the USA boast "health insurance" for their fulltime employees, but it's not paying for huge expensive surgeries. Fall and break your ankle, yeah, it'll get you patched up. Need a half million dollar neurosurgery? Yeah, no.

And of these healthcare plans, most include co-pays and most also have deductibles.

We have family who live in Mississippi. They have "healthcare" through his skilled trade job, but they still pay thousands of dollars a month out of pocket to boost the coverage levels to something that is actually going to cover anything serious just in case. Most people cannot afford that.

There are great employers who offer great plans that cover everything. But of that 50% of the population that even has employer coverage, the percentage that have these golden handshake plans is a small portion of that.

Facts.

51% equals most.

With skimpy plans huge surgeries may better benefit the patient. Assume $2000 deductible and 80% co-pay

$10,000 incident patient the patient pays the first $2,000 and 80% of the balance. Insurance pays $1600.

$100,000 incident patient pays $2000 deductible and 80 % of the balance. Insurance pays $19600.

Every plan is different.

 

[Mad Mike]

Until they can no longer placate the religious nutters.

Christian religious pro-life arguments are clear, but there are some secular arguments too that are more philosophical or rights-based.

 

[timtune]

Most of them went to PPC.

That would be hard to substantiate.

 

[jc100]

Except it wasn't a ridiculous blanket statement. It was a statement of fact. Uncontrovertible fact, actually. There was a time that the sun didn't set on the British empire and the same was true of the Roman empire in its day. These are facts. Both of those civilizations brought tremendous improvements in living quality, housing, water quality, healthcare, and many other innovations that the rest of the world did not have before them. They built the modern world as we know it today. These are facts. They don't care about your feelings or your fantasies.

Why arbritrarily stop your history/geography trip there? Is it because if you do then you don’t have to acknowledge the swarthy brown types that were the origin of optics, surgery. algebra, geometry and the establishment of universities? Also don’t give us the Romans example without those I mention because I’m fairly sure you don’t currently **** in a pit or race your vehicles on cobblestones today.

 

[jc100]

Trying hard to not get politics into this, but let's just examine the implications of what a number of US states are doing which is, shall we say, adverse to the ability of certain prenatal specialists to be able to provide proper care to their patients, and to the ability of such patients to get proper care in certain circumstances.

What do you think that's going to do to infant mortality rates??

I really, really hope Canada does not follow this path. I haven't been able to discern whether PP intends to follow this path. (I also don't trust any public statements he has made ... but maybe that's just me.)

Reactive healthcare-only going when something is wrong because you have to pay for every visit/procedure.

vs preventative healthcare where visits don’t “cost” in the traditional sense.

A bit like making sure the fluids in the car are maintained regularly vs only swapping them out when spent (and perhaps when the damage has already been done).

Not saying Canada is fantastic at the preventative side of things but the system we have is better set up for everyone to access at least some of that vs the better-off few that can do so in other systems.

Years ago in France (when the budget allowed) there were breast screening programs sent to grocery car parking lots so women could get screened while they did the shopping. The French worked out that prevention saved money in the long run. It freed up hospital beds and saved on palliative care and surgeries. This was open to all economic levels of society. Also, you wouldn’t get your first pay cheque for a company unless you’d had a free medical. I found the last bit out the hard way but appreciated the way this meant that large parts of the population at least had some baseline health measures looked at.

The problem in Canada now is that there’s an issue with providers vs what can actually be accomplished. The real cap is people. The reason for the cap comes down to a few things:

1. Number of students going into family medicine
2. Funding of places for medical students