What is up with people?

[Mad Mike]

Part of the ability of having a reasonable conversation about an issue that effects the majority of society is to remove yourself from your opinion. If you can't do that you can't be objective.

That's nice that you and some of us have gotten raises that far exceed cost of living. That doesn't mean it works that way for 80% of Canadians.

Nor does it change the fact the cost of living increases we all got are insufficient to keep up with real inflation, because the central banks have developed a faulty model of CPI that artificially keeps inflation looking low.

A reasonable conversation requires fundamental understanding and sound arguments. One's opinion counts, if it didn't we wouldn't have the fuel necessary for a conversation. Objectivity is something completely different.

I think the core of this argument is determining whether a worker deserves pay raises based on tenure or value. Let's look at an example from a company I owned. I had 2 young staff sewing complex garments, Jimmy and Michelle. Their starting wage was the same, 50% above minimum wage (which was 50% above the industry average), both were extremely competent, dependable and loyal.

After 5 years, Jimmy was doing the same duties he was hired for. Michelle had taken courses in design, and production planning, and while still doing the same role and with matched productivity, she increased shop efficiency, simplified some of our designs making them easier to produce - she made herself more valuable. After 5 years Michelle was making $5/hr more than Jimmy.

Not sure I understand your point on CPI and inflation. First off, the Bank of Canada (central bank) doesn't compute this, it's done by Stats Canada. It's pretty hard to fudge economic data over a long term, it's also open and transparent so if the system was hoodwinking people, there would be a lot of noise.

 

[GreyGhost]

Not sure I understand your point on CPI and inflation. First off, the Bank of Canada (central bank) doesn't compute this, it's done by Stats Canada. It's pretty hard to fudge economic data over a long term, it's also open and transparent so if the system was hoodwinking people, there would be a lot of noise.

His argument is the "basket" that stats canada uses to calculate inflation is not relatable to the inflation people feel in their normal purchases. Yes, it is a stable metric and comparable over time but if the basket is full of products A through M and people spend far more of their yearly budget on products N through Z, it is an almost meaningless metric in peoples lives. CoL salary increase to cover items A through M may be 25% of that required to cover the increase in N through Z. Therefore, all just a game to say they are trying and really CoL increase means you are sliding backwards quickly. I haven't looked at the basket in enough detail to know if his argument is reasonable or justified but it is an interesting concept.

On a similar note, I hate salary tables. They are a pox on society. The best worker gets the same raise as the worst one. The only way to get a significant raise is to work somewhere else and then come back to get to a different line in the table. How is that good for anybody? By removing flexibility, by definition you are only rewarding tenure and ignoring value.

 

[Dimitri]

I haven't looked at the basket in enough detail to know if his argument is reasonable or justified but it is an interesting concept.

Well, the basket being flawed has always been am issue. They updated it in 2019.

The typical family is spending 50% of their household after tax income on housing. Only 27% of the basket is housing related.

But lets look how lop sided it is.

They eliminated in 2019 internet costs from the basket. But even before then it made up 1% of the basket. CTRC says the average Canadian pays $80 for high speed internet (2018 prices) That means the average Canadian family must make $8,000 a month after taxes.

Gasoline makes up 3.34% of the basket, and Natural Resources Canada says it's an average of $145 a month. So our basic family income with one car needs to be about $4,300.

So based on the CPI, if you are single, you need to be in the top 5% of Canadians to afford internet. And top 20% to own a car.

Tell me which one is the average Canadian more likely to have?

 

[PrivatePilot]

Golden handcuffs have always been an issue. You can either stop blowing money on *&^*(&^ to set yourself up for a lower paying but more enjoyable job

This feels a bit like my current situation, except the "blowing money" isn't 100% because of the toys, it's because of 2 still dependent children, one who is in higher education and costing us a ton of money every month accordingly. Don't get me wrong, we enjoy ourselves a lot as well, but....YOLO. I don't want to be like so many people who pinch every penny and reach their retirement too sick or somehow unable to enjoy life anymore (or die) not having done many of the things they could & should have earlier. I have literally worked alongside way too many of these exact people in the last 20 years to do it to myself.

But once the kids education and support is over and they've moved on, I'm seriously considering leaving where I am. That will be a hard decision though as once I go, there's no coming back. And making well above average wage in my industry, with a pension (all but unheard of) and decent benefits, well, it indeed does feel like the golden handcuffs thing.

But it also feels horribly dead-end in the grand scheme of things. It changed up a tiny bit recently with the driver trainer gig I posted about here somewhere, but given as how we average maybe 1 actual hire a year (sometimes less, we are very seniority heavy...and nobody ever quits) aside from 2 or 4 temp drivers who need to be onboarded for the summer for vacation replacements.

Aside from that little bit of excitement I expect this to be the same job for the most part until the end of time, aside from maybe minor changes to the geographic area I go to every day.

It's become horribly monotonous after basically 20 years here, and the way the company is structured there's basically no chance of upward movement. Not to mention many of the non-management "upward moves" pay less than I make now anyways, often with ******** hours so there's no incentive.

But will I go eventually? I suspect so. If I quit before the age of 55 I can collapse my pension into my RRSP (and it should be a pretty sizeable amount by then), go get a job I actually like somewhere for another 5 or 10 years (pay will be secondary and not as important anymore) and cruise into retirement that way.

 

[Mad Mike]

His argument is the "basket" that stats canada uses to calculate inflation is not relatable to the inflation people feel in their normal purchases. Yes, it is a stable metric and comparable over time but if the basket is full of products A through M and people spend far more of their yearly budget on products N through Z, it is an almost meaningless metric in peoples lives. CoL salary increase to cover items A through M may be 25% of that required to cover the increase in N through Z. Therefore, all just a game to say they are trying and really CoL increase means you are sliding backwards quickly. I haven't looked at the basket in enough detail to know if his argument is reasonable or justified but it is an interesting concept.

On a similar note, I hate salary tables. They are a pox on society. The best worker gets the same raise as the worst one. The only way to get a significant raise is to work somewhere else and then come back to get to a different line in the table. How is that good for anybody? By removing flexibility, by definition you are only rewarding tenure and ignoring value.

It's not that complicated. It's a mix of basics that are weighted by the actual consumer consumption rates -- so they do change as consumer spending changes.

Economics are not always easy to understand. We might see a 2x4 jump by 300% in a year when we need to buy lumber to build a shed -- that increase alone should shoot up any inflationary calculation. Or beef that doubles in it's price/lb, or fuel that jumps by 30%.

CPI doesn't measure everything and it's price changes, it adapts to match what consumers spend on. At $10 for a 2x4 a lot of people simply don't buy 2x4 lumber, perhaps an alternative perhaps no spend -- so that caused a reweighing of that basket item which removes the uptick it may have caused. Same for changes in fuel - consumers may opt for alternatives. Food too - beef to expensive? Spending shifts to pork and poultry gets more of the spend.

At the end there is still a basket of goods and a mix determined by the consumer goes into the weighting formula. Any difference between this months basket and last months basket is the up and down of CPI.

 

[GreyGhost]

At the end there is still a basket of goods and a mix determined by the consumer goes into the weighting formula. Any difference between this months basket and last months basket is the up and down of CPI.

His argument is the mix in the basket is very wrong. Although stats can is theoretically independent, they live at the presiding governments tete so releasing "statistics" that don't align with the gov't position/talking points is a quick way to get defunded.

 

[Mad Mike]

This feels a bit like my current situation, except the "blowing money" isn't 100% because of the toys, it's because of 2 still dependent children, one who is in higher education and costing us a ton of money every month accordingly. Don't get me wrong, we enjoy ourselves a lot as well, but....YOLO. I don't want to be like so many people who pinch every penny and reach their retirement too sick or somehow unable to enjoy life anymore (or die) not having done many of the things they could & should have earlier. I have literally worked alongside way too many of these exact people in the last 20 years to do it to myself.

But once the kids education and support is over and they've moved on, I'm seriously considering leaving where I am. That will be a hard decision though as once I go, there's no coming back. And making well above average wage in my industry, with a pension (all but unheard of) and decent benefits, well, it indeed does feel like the golden handcuffs thing.

But it also feels horribly dead-end in the grand scheme of things. It changed up a tiny bit recently with the driver trainer gig I posted about here somewhere, but given as how we average maybe 1 actual hire a year (sometimes less, we are very seniority heavy...and nobody ever quits) aside from 2 or 4 temp drivers who need to be onboarded for the summer for vacation replacements.

Aside from that little bit of excitement I expect this to be the same job for the most part until the end of time, aside from maybe minor changes to the geographic area I go to every day.

It's become horribly monotonous after basically 20 years here, and the way the company is structured there's basically no chance of upward movement. Not to mention many of the non-management "upward moves" pay less than I make now anyways, often with ******** hours so there's no incentive.

But will I go eventually? I suspect so. If I quit before the age of 55 I can collapse my pension into my RRSP (and it should be a pretty sizeable amount by then), go get a job I actually like somewhere for another 5 or 10 years (pay will be secondary and not as important anymore) and cruise into retirement that way.

You have one life, and every new day represents a bigger fraction of what's left of it.

I stopped doing things I don't enjoy 10 years ago. I was tired of 80 hour weeks and an entrepreneur so I sold the place. After a 3 year retirement I was bored silly so I took a zero stress job at a big bank. Had fun for 6 years then decided to try something else. I make decent bank, but less than I did 25 years ago - thing is I'm way happier today than I was then.

Unless there is no alternative, from here on in I'll never do something I don't enjoy or want to do.

 

[Mad Mike]

His argument is the mix in the basket is very wrong. Although stats can is theoretically independent, they live at the presiding governments tete so releasing "statistics" that don't align with the gov't position/talking points is a quick way to get defunded.

Maybe, but it's a pretty transparent thing - as I mentioned before both bleeding hearts and cons would be screaming from their respective soapboxes if the CPI was manipulated for political advantage - it's a pretty trusty measure.

 

[mimico_polak]

Unless there is no alternative, from here on in I'll never do something I don't enjoy or want to do.

That is a great place to be in life. But as we see very seldom are people able to do this.

Id love to do a diff job that’s more fun, but with my education, background and experience I may be able to pull an extra 10-20k max right now.

Someone kick my ass so I finish this stupid PENG and PMP application. LoL completed and passed the PENG exam so that’s a plus!

 

[PrivatePilot]

You have one life, and every new day represents a bigger fraction of what's left of it.

Indeed. Like I said, I've worked alongside so many people who busted their ***** their entire life, saved every penny and spent very few of them, and then couldn't enjoy it at the end.

Several died within a few years of retirement, never to even see a day of it.

One had a stroke about 6 months after retiring and has been in a nursing home ever since.

A few others died within 5 years of retirement.

One poor guy was involved in a major not at fault accident a few years before his 65'th (and retirement), was never quite the same after a few years of intensive recovery before returning to modified duty, and when he did finally retire at 65, died literally 5 weeks later of a major stroke or heart attack or something.

This job is hard on you for a lot of reasons many people don't understand....all the more reason for me to GTFO early, monotony aside.

I'd love to get back into something on a farm somewhere, working with horses, or whatever. I couldn't care if it's $15/hour or whatever...it would be something I'd enjoy, and the money would matter less anymore anyways. As long as my wife keeps working. She makes the big bucks in the family lol.

 

[GreyGhost]

I'd love to get back into something on a farm somewhere, working with horses, or whatever. I couldn't care if it's $15/hour or whatever...it would be something I'd enjoy, and the money would matter less anymore anyways. As long as my wife keeps working. She makes the big bucks in the family lol.

If there are still farms around in a decade, I'm going to try to get my kids to work on a farm for a summer. That should help them appreciate future employment where they are not baking in the sun and no rest until the job is done.

 

[PrivatePilot]

That should help them appreciate future employment where they are not baking in the sun and no rest until the job is done

It's certainly an experience, but for a number of years when we were big into the riding circuit my daughter and I spent some time managing a horse farm on weekends and working there through the week when time permitted in exchange for saddle time, and I enjoyed it. I've always enjoyed working with animals.

It can be hard at times though, no question.

I've got something else potentially on the back burner as well which could be an enjoyable retirement gig. I just have to wait until covid settles some more to go meet the fellow currently in the job and learn more about it. And when the job comes available - I don't know if it's a "next year" or "5 years from now" thing. The latter would actually be better.

 

[Dimitri]

Maybe, but it's a pretty transparent thing - as I mentioned before both bleeding hearts and cons would be screaming from their respective soapboxes if the CPI was manipulated for political advantage - it's a pretty trusty measure.

Most economists disagree that CPI is a good measure.

My broadband internet verses fuel costs is just one of many examples of why the measure is faulty.

That's why many economists use joking measures like the Burrito Index.

 

[BigEvilDoer]

Rep hockey/competitive gymnastics cost dump truck loads of money and lets be honest, very few make it. You'd be way ahead putting the $xx,xxx dollars per year into financial investments. Recreational sports are good. Most competitive sports for kids are a stupid idea designed to extract as much money from parents as possible.

Midget (16-17 year olds) AAA hockey, in Waterloo region costs about $14,000 at the moment. That's including hotels, gas, registration and tournament fees.

*IF* your child is good enough to make it to the GTHL, you can expect a $25,000 bill per season.

 

[48Connor]

That is a great place to be in life. But as we see very seldom are people able to do this.

Id love to do a diff job that’s more fun, but with my education, background and experience I may be able to pull an extra 10-20k max right now.

Someone kick my ass so I finish this stupid PENG and PMP application. LoL completed and passed the PENG exam so that’s a plus!

Ugh don't remind me I have two weeks left to submit my EIT experience record for my PENG. I think I can ask for an extension but I really don't want to work on it the entire summer.

I've been thinking about signing up for PMP. The PM's and managers I work with who have it say its a real benefit. If I stay in my current field I'll probably start at it in a year or too, but once I get that PENG paper I'm thinking of making some career moves. Time will tell.

 

[GreyGhost]

Midget (16-17 year olds) AAA hockey, in Waterloo region costs about $14,000 at the moment. That's including hotels, gas, registration and tournament fees.

*IF* your child is good enough to make it to the GTHL, you can expect a $25,000 bill per season.

Neighbours at our old house had one kid in competitive hockey and one in competitive gymnastics. They said gymnastics was between 5 and 10K more per year than hockey. Bleeping ridiculous.

 

[GreyGhost]

Ugh don't remind me I have two weeks left to submit my EIT experience record for my PENG. I think I can ask for an extension but I really don't want to work on it the entire summer.

I've been thinking about signing up for PMP. The PM's and managers I work with who have it say its a real benefit. If I stay in my current field I'll probably start at it in a year or too, but once I get that PENG paper I'm thinking of making some career moves. Time will tell.

What's the deadline for experience record? They didn't use to kick you out, a delay does delay your paperwork (and hopefully raise) though.

 

[Chameleon]

I'm in..... @Evoex ... we'll need more Polaks and Ukranians for judging the pierogies (calling @oioioi)

There's usually at least 3 judges anyway right?

 

[BigEvilDoer]

I’m seeing more and more young people totally clueless when it comes dealing with others face to face. From something simple like facial expressions to even reading someone’s body language….I can only assume it’s because kids are spending less time with each other, and more time online.

Actually, something I read a while back indicated that Millenials and younger generations are genuinely freaked out by someone ringing their doorbell. Stress goes through the roof... To me, that's just goofy...

To add to it, if I know you're coming, do you *REALLY* need to text me telling me you've arrived?

 

[Katatonic]

Actually, something I read a while back indicated that Millenials and younger generations are genuinely freaked out by someone ringing their doorbell. Stress goes through the roof... To me, that's just goofy...

To add to it, if I know you're coming, do you *REALLY* need to text me telling me you've arrived?

No. I just ring your doorbell as fast as I can 50 times….