Ukraine anyone?

Lunatic said:
Not like Russia at all, there are very close ties between Israel and Russia. No doubt there are fascist idiots in Russia (just like here), but the country as a whole is not.
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There are politically ties yes. But Russian ultra nationalism is very strong in Russia and although it's not official policy it's activities are often not investigated by police.

Imagrants, gays and Jews are all not treated particulaly well in Russia. The rise of nationalism in Europe has been a threat for a long time and it's now starting to happen it seems
 
Two50noob said:
There are politically ties yes. But Russian ultra nationalism is very strong in Russia and although it's not official policy it's activities are often not investigated by police.
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As opposed to Ukrainian nationalism which just violently overthrew an entire government?

Just sayin...
 
mmmnaked said:
The most violent and vocal parties in the recent protests have been members and supporters of Svoboda and Pravy Sektor. These people hate Russians, and they have now proven their power. It's naive to think that events would unfold peacefully without Russian military intervention in the region.
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I don't disagree that the Russian population of the region deserved to protected but this isn't only about protecting these people. There is way more geopolitical motivations here and a good amount of putins pride to. There are steps Russia could have taken to accomplish these goal without invading a sovereign state. Tbh i think the best solution for all would've be Russia to allow the Ukrainian military to withdraw back into the western states and move their troops to the boarder. Then allow Crimea to determin it's own Fate via referendum. Either as part of the federation or a sovereign. State.
 
Just saying what you violent nationalism just overthrew a corrupt as **** government and now will setup their own corrupt government and then the army of another corrupt nationalistic government invaded. It's bad vs bad here there will be no winners except Putin cause he can flex his muscle and the new leaders of he ukrain.

All the regular people living in ukrain and crimea all lose. Best we can hope for is that this ends without shots being fired
 
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mmmnaked said:
As opposed to Ukrainian nationalism which just violently overthrew an entire government?

Just sayin...
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What do you think I'm supporting nationalism I like to think I studied history to know what it leads to. My point is that there are no good guys here the specter of nationalism is starting to rise again in Europe and the next ten years will get interesting.
 
Two50noob said:
I don't disagree that the Russian population of the region deserved to protected but this isn't only about protecting these people. There is way more geopolitical motivations here and a good amount of putins pride to. There are steps Russia could have taken to accomplish these goal without invading a sovereign state. Tbh i think the best solution for all would've be Russia to allow the Ukrainian military to withdraw back into the western states and move their troops to the boarder. Then allow Crimea to determin it's own Fate via referendum. Either as part of the federation or a sovereign. State.
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Now you're talking about tactics. For what its worth, it wasn't Putin's move alone... he asked his government for permission and they voted unanimously to allow it.

Considering the path Kiev is on right now, I think its safe to say that ethnic Russians in Ukraine are breathing a sigh of relief with Russian military stepping in. IMO this isn't gonna escalate much further. Putin isn't gonna take over Ukraine, at most he's hoping to annex Crimea, or steer it into a friendly independent state separate from Ukraine. It doesn't look like it will take much force to do it, either. Hopefully Im right. One thing is certain, without Russia's intervention, the ethnic population in Crimea and the south would never be given a voice...
 
mmmnaked said:
Now you're talking about tactics. For what its worth, it wasn't Putin's move alone... he asked his government for permission and they voted unanimously to allow it.

Considering the path Kiev is on right now, I think its safe to say that ethnic Russians in Ukraine are breathing a sigh of relief with Russian military stepping in. IMO this isn't gonna escalate much further. Putin isn't gonna take over Ukraine, at most he's hoping to annex Crimea, or steer it into a friendly independent state separate from Ukraine. It doesn't look like it will take much force to do it, either. Hopefully Im right. One thing is certain, without Russia's intervention, the ethnic population in Crimea and the south would never be given a voice...
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But let's be honest Putin made the move before he asked his parliament and secondly there isn't much room for dissent in Russian politics.

I to don't think it will go much further but there us always the chance that someone gets jumpy and starts shooting that's part of he equation that no one can controle so it's worrying.
 
I worry the world will sit back and do nothing in the hopes of a peaceful solution. There are parallels to the beginnings of WW2 here.

Poutin with his increasingly authoritarian stance, and controversial anti-gay laws.

Both Hosted Olympics to show the world how far they've come.

Now both have decided annexing former territory is the way forward (Hitler claimed German nationals in Czechoslovakia wanted to be united with Germany) It's a slippery slope.

Lets hope the world has learned from Neville Chamberlain
 
Has anyone heard this tape or thought about its implications?

[video=youtube;MSxaa-67yGM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSxaa-67yGM[/video]

That's Victoria Nuland, US Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, speaking with US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt.

Its surprisingly telling of the meddling and puppeteering the US is carrying out in Ukraine. And then Obama has the gall to be "shocked" at Putin's actions :lol: what a joke.
 
mmmnaked said:
Its surprisingly telling of the meddling and puppeteering the US is carrying out in Ukraine. And then Obama has the gall to be "shocked" at Putin's actions :lol: what a joke.
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Democratic process at it's finest..... beats rounding up dissidents and jailing them to get your way any day of the week
 
Two50noob said:
Well it all started in 862 when a number of states formed a loose association called Kievan Rus........

its actually very hard to put this into a nut shell type thing because there is tops of cultural history behind it. But basically Ukraine had a revolution kicked out its pro Russian leader and then Russia invaded the pro Russian autonomous region of Chrimea to protect its military interests and under the guise of protecting the ethic russian population that are there from the old ussr days.
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I understand there are past tensions, and that part of the story im sure can't be summed up in a few words, so what is it now, or in the last month or two, that kick started this whole thing?
 
SONIC said:
I understand there are past tensions, and that part of the story im sure can't be summed up in a few words, so what is it now, or in the last month or two, that kick started this whole thing?
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That answer is in my original post you replied to
 
SONIC said:
I understand there are past tensions, and that part of the story im sure can't be summed up in a few words, so what is it now, or in the last month or two, that kick started this whole thing?
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Basically the Ukrainian administration was playing the EU and Russia against each other. The economy is crap and they needed a bailout. Russia offered them a bailout conditional on them aligning closer to them so the president decided not to sign a deal with the EU, especially since that would have resulted in a loss of subsidized energy prices from Russia and about 1,500,000 jobs in a country of 45,000,000. The EU astroturfed a series of violent protests, which wasn't hard because the country is run by billionaire cleptocrats (including the president), but they're not as good at hiding it as our neighbors are.

The protests resulted in the president running off to Russia fearing for his life, but the new regime is filled with hard right ultranationalists who tried to abolish language rights for minorities (big deal as Ukraine has lots of Russians and also lots of ethnic Ukrainians who speak Russian as their first language), introduced harsher penalties for holding a dual citizenship and had a long track record of hating Russia so much that they fought on the side of militant Islamic groups. They also replaced 18 out of 24 elected regional governors (some of them with the same billionaire cleptocrats they were supposedly protesting against). Some of those regions didn't like having their governors replaced or their language of choice being made unofficial, so they started their own protests (I'm sure some of it was astroturfed by Russia, this time around).

Crimea, having only been a part of Ukraine for 60 years and being 60% Russian, 25% Russian-speaking Ukrainian and 15% Tatar said "screw this, we don't recognize those new clowns out west, we'll run our own show in our own province until there's an actual democratic election". Since Russians have been leasing a naval base down there, they sent some base personnel out to patrol the streets, but most of the patrolling has been done by local militias. Most of the Ukrainian forces in the area defected to the local government, the rest ran away and there have been no clashes between the militaries in the area. Other provinces in the South-East have been doing the same to a lesser extent.

Pro-Russian Eastern Ukraine is the main prize in this mess. If Russia gets it either directly or by exerting influence over a potential new-formed state in the area, the EU can't plunder the region and they're stuck with bailing out the welfare-case Western Ukraine. Putin's main interest is Crimea (because of the naval base) but he wouldn't mind having the East under his thumb either.
 
Snobike Mike said:
But isn't the guy playing the game actually a Russian puppet anyways who is playing into Putin's empire building?

I'm curious to know what you think.
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The only thing he's a puppet to is his Swiss bank account. Definitely a cleptocrat, but a democratically elected cleptocrat like a Bush or a Piñera, which the EU and their Maidan astroturf conveniently swept under the rug. He was working both the EU and Russia trying to get the best deal and the EU couldn't offer 1/10 of what Russia was offering, so he decided to get closer to Vlad than Angela. He really became Vlad's sock-puppet once he got chased outta the country.
 
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