Tire wear | Page 3 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Tire wear

kellen said:
Korean fan death is real
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Hahaha. Ok...new springs is the only reality. I can't possibly be right eh? All in my head?

Shims, gas, oil, viscosity, valves, nope.....none of that could be a solution to a suspension issue, gotta be springs and only springs. Gotcha.

Call BS on my map times and let's settle it at TMP one day.

Tell ya what, if I pull a 1:20 or a 1:21 on a year old tire (PCR), ridden through winter with a track day already on it, you cover my track day expenses? Deal?
 
Not to mention I've seen a tire get shredded within a matter of laps due to suspension issues...many times.
 
caboose483 said:
The pressures you run in your Pirellis have no bearing on what pressure should be run in a Michelin.... at all.

Power 1 is a DOT race tire. Corsa IIIs and Rossos are Hypersport street tires.

Apples and Oranges.
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I'm not suggesting the OP should run my pressures. I am suggesting there is a lot more to consider before considering the tire to be worn or have dropped off due to heat cycles.

My recommendation is to go back to suggested PSI for the street, set it up for the track, and ride around the first session at a sprited but not crazy pace. Maybe 1:35s to 1:38s. Get a feel for the bike properly set up, then drop to a generic or recommended PSI once at the track. Get to know what difference the PSI drop makes from street pressures. The confidence should be pretty inspiring. Then go up or down a couple PSI at most to find the right comfort for the OP. But if the bike isn't set up correctly to begin with, then playing with tire pressure is not the way to go about solving is washing out issues. The OP sounds like he has some skills, but is not quite familiar with the cause and effect / feel of the bike, and is misreading feedback. A slight back to the basics approach before a whole host of either bad or advanced advice is not the best option.

Posting up pics of shedded to **** tires is not helping either, and most of track riders with shredded tires have overly soft suspension set ups to begin with! Everyone and their mom think their tires are supposed to look shredded after one track day, and want to believe they rode the ballz off them. Meanwhile better times can be achieved with much less wear on a street tire.
 
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awyala said:
Hahaha. Ok...new springs is the only reality. I can't possibly be right eh? All in my head?

Shims, gas, oil, viscosity, valves, nope.....none of that could be a solution to a suspension issue, gotta be springs and only springs. Gotcha.

Call BS on my map times and let's settle it at TMP one day.

Tell ya what, if I pull a 1:20 or a 1:21 on a year old tire (PCR), ridden through winter with a track day already on it, you cover my track day expenses? Deal?
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how about if I beat your Ducati around the race track on my 13 year old R6 you get some fork springs
 
awyala said:
I'm not suggesting the OP should run my pressures. I am suggesting there is a lot more to consider before considering the tire to be worn or have dropped off due to heat cycles.

My recommendation is to go back to suggested PSI for the street, set it up for the track, then drop to a generic or recommended PSI once at the track. Then go up or down a couple PSI at most to find the right comfort for the OP. But if the bike isn't set up correctly to begin with, then playing with tire pressure is not the way to go about solving is washing out issues.

Posting up pics of shedded to **** tires is not helping either, and most of track riders with shredded tires have overly soft suspension set ups to begin with!
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Power 1s are DOT race tires. There is no suggested street pressure for a DOT race tire because they are DOT race tires. If you're on a race track why would you not use the pressures as suggested by people familiar with Michelin race tires (Donovan or perhaps Wayne Kennedy)?

You run a street tire on the track. The OP is running a DOT race tire on a track.

Apples and Oranges.

My 10R rides like a dump truck and I have a hard time not shredding Dunlops when ambient temps are below 20C. However, that has nothing to do with how stiff/soft my suspension is set.

kellen said:
how about if I beat your Ducati around the race track on my 13 year old R6 you get some fork springs
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:)
 
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kellen said:
how about if I beat your Ducati around the race track on my 13 year old R6 you get some fork springs
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I'm not calling BS on you. I'm calling you a sarcastic piss taker.

You're calling passive aggressive BS on me. So if I am so unbelieveble, why not back it up.

You probably could beat me round TMP on a modified R6. 5+ on the rear sproket and you got my number no problem. And what you'll be running slicks too, maybe ramapped? If you're half way compitent you should be besting 1:20, old R6 new R6.

The fact that you probably don't give a damn about downing your bucket is probably worth another second.

But I'll give you one hell of a run on a stock L bike that I'll ride back and forth from the track and to work the next day!
 
caboose483 said:
The pressures you run in your Pirellis have no bearing on what pressure should be run in a Michelin.... at all.

Power 1 is a DOT race tire. Corsa IIIs and Rossos are Hypersport street tires.

Apples and Oranges.
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I was thinking the samething, Im no pro I just started track riding so Im just looking for some feed back, and getting pointed in right direction,
 
caboose483 said:
Power 1s are DOT race tires. There is no suggested street pressure for a DOT race tire because they are DOT race tires. If you're on a race track why would you not use the pressures as suggested by people familiar with Michelin race tires (Donovan or perhaps Wayne Kennedy).

You run a street tire on the track. The OP is running a DOT race tire on a track.

Apples and Oranges.

My 10R rides like a dump truck and I have a hard time not shredding Dunlops when ambient temps are below 20C. However, that has nothing to do with how stiff/soft my suspension is set.



:)
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Race Tires eh? Not for the street?

http://www.motorcycle.com/products/michelin-power-one-tire-review-88725.html

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/1/28/394/19753/ITEM/Michelin-Power-One-2CT-Rear-Tire.aspx

"The racing version of the Power One is also known as the “Racing 17 Treaded,” the number referring to the wheel size. The racing Power One receives further designation with either A, B, C or V tacked on, as in Power One B, while the street tire is referred to solely as Power One."

You know the OPs compound?
 
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caboose483 said:
Power 1s are DOT race tires. There is no suggested street pressure for a DOT race tire because they are DOT race tires. If you're on a race track why would you not use the pressures as suggested by people familiar with Michelin race tires (Donovan or perhaps Wayne Kennedy)?

You run a street tire on the track. The OP is running a DOT race tire on a track.

Apples and Oranges.

My 10R rides like a dump truck and I have a hard time not shredding Dunlops when ambient temps are below 20C. However, that has nothing to do with how stiff/soft my suspension is set.



:)
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Shredding or cold tearing?
 
padu said:
I was thinking the samething, Im no pro I just started track riding so Im just looking for some feed back, and getting pointed in right direction,
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I believe you have already been pointed in the right direction.

Reciprocity is very familiar with the Michelins, or failing that Wayne Kennedy @ Kennedy Motorsports will be able to help you out. 1st step is to make sure you're pressures are correct, after that you can start making sure everything else is set properly too.
 
awyala said:
Shredding or cold tearing?
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What?

awyala said:
Race Tires eh? Not for the street?

http://www.motorcycle.com/products/michelin-power-one-tire-review-88725.html

"The racing version of the Power One is also known as the “Racing 17 Treaded,” the number referring to the wheel size. The racing Power One receives further designation with either A, B, C or V tacked on, as in Power One B, while the street tire is referred to solely as Power One."

You know the OPs compound?
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Page 1, OP specified B compound. So yes, I know the OP's compound.
 
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awyala said:
I'm asking if under 20C (I am assuming air temp, not surface temp) you are experiencing cold tearing, or shredding of your Dunlops?
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Those terms are synonymous in the circles in which I usually communicate. Please clarify how you believe the terms differ.

Perhaps you mean rebound tear? That also has very little to do with spring rate.
 
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Awyala,

Do you actually have any experience in this area?? Suspension tuning?? chassis setup for tire configuration and type or are you just throwing terms and statements from the internet?

I'm curious as I'm trying to understand the basis for your arguments?
 
padu said:
Its B compound
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If you were pushing sub 1:20s (assuming TMP), on a bike with more torque, I would say by day 3 your B compounds would start showing signs. Assuming a good set up of course.

But for a 600R, with your times, and warmers, you could probably get 4 or 5 track days out of them before drop off in performance (or rather noticible drop off). Obviously someone in the 1:17 range would notice a half second drop off, where as a typical track day rider doesn't string together consistant laps. You best lap of a session may be 1:26 but you probably have a couple laps in the low 30s too in that same session.

If your set up is poor, as well as your pressures, or if the air temp is in excess of 28C, you could be experiencing premature drop off, or general greasiness due to the heat.

Before getting new tires there are some set up steps you can take, and even if your MP1s are toast, a proper set up will get the best life and performance out of your next set.

I also contend that you could get better lap times out of a much more durable street / track tire if you are looking for a consistent high performing tire with thousands of heat cycles.

I'll try to post a PDF file that gives a good insight into tire wear analysis that can help in understanding your set up and riding style.
 
caboose483 said:
Those terms are synonymous in the circles in which I usually communicate. Please clarify how you believe the terms differ.

Perhaps you mean rebound tear? That also has very little to do with spring rate.
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"shredding" I understand to be a loose term for severe degredation of the tire, in a shredding manner.

"cold tearing" is a more specific form of shredding related to a cold tire which tends to tear (initially and mostly at the tread edges) under acceleration.

This is how I understand these terms, though I could be wrong. I was just curious if that is the type of shredding experienced at temps lower than 20C. Or perhaps it is a different type of shredding than that on a typically "shredded" tire on a hotter day.

I am asking for your experienced nuanced experience here, not challenging you.
 
awyala said:
"shredding" I understand to be a loose term for severe degredation of the tire, in a shredding manner.

"cold tearing" is a more specific form of shredding related to a cold tire which tends to tear (initially and mostly at the tread edges) under acceleration.

This is how I understand these terms, though I could be wrong. I was just curious if that is the type of shredding experienced at temps lower than 20C. Or perhaps it is a different type of shredding than that on a typically "shredded" tire on a hotter day.

I am asking for your experienced nuanced experience here, not challenging you.
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If a tire is shredding there is a set up problem. The OP's tire is not what I would consider shredding, it just looks worn. This is what I would consider torn or shredded.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/243/tiretrackday.jpg/sr=1

Shredding is a broad term that covers everything that results in tearing and premature wear. Cold tear is what I experience with lower ambient temps, but the most common type is probably rebound tear.
 
reciprocity said:
Awyala,

Do you actually have any experience in this area?? Suspension tuning?? chassis setup for tire configuration and type or are you just throwing terms and statements from the internet?

I'm curious as I'm trying to understand the basis for your arguments?
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My experience is that of a novice, but likely more than the OP. And my experience is noooooooo where near yours. Your reputation proceeds you for certain! I don't mean that in any sarcastic manner.

My point however is, with basic set up experience, and basic knowledge, and adaptations to riding style, better outcomes can be achieved as opposed to relying on new equipment, or misusing equipment in the first place.

My original post in this thread was to demonstrate there is an element of overkill going on. A return to "basics" will yield better results and longevity of the OPs tire, than fiddling around in the potentially dark art of suspension tuning.

Stock settings with very minor tweaks as and when a novice rider comes to terms and appreciates stock settings, is a much better approach. Extreme settings, solutions, pressures, and advice from riders who use extreme settings is not likely the best approach for the OP.

The first reaction to think the tires are going off on a 3rd track day is an over reaction, or perhaps due to an over-reaction (in terms of the OP's suspension settings).

I went through something very similar with a buddy of mine a couple years back. He was running 1:40s at TMP and lost the rear. At the time I had only been to TMP once and laid down a best lap of 1:32. He could swear at the time his PSC's were "letting go" under hard acceleration due to wear or over heating. First instinct is to blame the tires.

Low and behold, a year later, on a Honda CBR600F4I (not his original 2005 ZX10R), and after becoming a SOAR novice racer for a season, he was belting around TMP in the low 1:18s!!!! He was still on his (favoured - not the original set he was using the year before) PSC's, and aside from suspension settings, he was now using tire warmers. But he dropped to a damn 1999 CBR600F4I !!!!!!

For every time I joined him at a track day, he put nearly 6 to 8 tracks days in between. His learning curve was phenomenal!!!! Over the next 3 track days that year, I went from my 1:32 to a 1:20. Those last 5 seconds to be running a pro / am racer lap at TMP will be damn near impossible. I figure I could crack into a low 1:19 or high 1:18 on the stock ZX10 but that means some serious risks. So let's say from experience I know 1:28 at TMP is not overly taxing MP1's, nor the rest of any stock machinery.

So though I don't have the pedigree you do, I am also not advocating an advanced solution which you may see fit. Rather I am suggesting more could be done with less, so don't blame the tires. New tires won't solve this problem.
 
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