The global Debt Clock

... they WON'T.

If there is a complete collapse of the modern economic system then there is nothing you or I or anyone else can do (as an individual) to come out "okay" on the other side.

My thinking on this is that since there is no way of protecting yourself in this scenario then there is no purpose to even attempt to do so. I also regard a complete failure of this nature, as being extremely improbable. If an asteroid lands smack dab in New York City and destroys the whole city then there is no insurance company anywhere that is big enough to have enough assets to pay for such a repair job. (The Americans have had trouble enough with New Orleans, but I digress.) Barring such a catastrophe (in which we all have much, much bigger things to worry about than how much money we have) I think modern society will do everything in its power to prevent a financial collapse of its own accord. That doesn't mean they won't do things that are not pretty ...

If the US gets to the point of "printing money" - basically, wiping debt off the books without really collecting the taxes to pay for it in the interest of protecting bond-holders - then yes, that's traditionally regarded as inflationary, and yes, it means that debts and assets denominated in US dollars will be worth less in terms of US currency. The way to protect against that, is to own things denominated in currency that is less likely to be affected by this. (I regard Canadian dollars as not a bad choice. Swiss francs are another.)

I agree that the US is not near the point of diminishing returns with regards to raising taxes to raise revenue, but it's a politically unpalatable thing to do. It's also worth noting that a consumption tax (variously referred to as HST or VAT or whatever) is less destructive to an economy than income taxes. Much as the GST/HST is hated by the general public, it's better than income tax (of course, we pay both, but that's another matter).

What the US needs is to implement a consumption tax, reform the income tax system, implement a "carbon tax" (they need to drastically reduce energy consumption - if for no other reason than to reduce the amount of money they send to overseas markets to pay for it), fix their broken health care system, remove mortgage interest deductibility, remove a whole raft of government subsidies, and get out of fighting other people's wars. None of these are popular - but it's got to get done. I'm not holding my breath. But, either they do this voluntarily and have the choice of doing these things in a manner in which they have a choice of HOW to do them, or they are forced into austerity measures and are forced to do them.

It's been said that the US government can be relied upon to always make the right choice - after exhausting every other possibility first ...
 
What the US needs is to implement a consumption tax, reform the income tax system, implement a "carbon tax" (they need to drastically reduce energy consumption - if for no other reason than to reduce the amount of money they send to overseas markets to pay for it), fix their broken health care system, remove mortgage interest deductibility, remove a whole raft of government subsidies, and get out of fighting other people's wars. None of these are popular - but it's got to get done. I'm not holding my breath. But, either they do this voluntarily and have the choice of doing these things in a manner in which they have a choice of HOW to do them, or they are forced into austerity measures and are forced to do them.

Very well said. Political poison, but it is what is needed.

Warren Buffett's offer: http://www.moneyville.ca/article/1039754--buffett-wants-higher-taxes-for-mega-rich

 
Last edited:
At this point Amerika cannot stop the downward spiral. The repealing of the Glass-Stegall Act by the Clinton Administration had opened Pandora’s Box. This allowed the brokerage firms to come up with a plethora of derivatives that probably less than 10% of the people understand what they are. This market is worth over a quadrillion dollars. The mark to market model has become mark to fantasy when the FASB capitulated back in 2009 and allowed the firms to assign a value based on what they perceive it to be. If you have been following the FDIC bank closures you will have an idea how much these derivative positions are overstated when the bank is audited for liquidation and the FDIC goes to a loan loss agreement to dispose of the bank. There are trillions of dollars of worthless mortgages on the Treasury’s balance sheet and Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae have more to trade for treasury notes to remain solvent. 3 million unlisted foreclosed homes and 3 million delinquent mortgages on the banks books. Where does the money come from to keep the banks solvent? BAIL money. The buyer of last resort at the failed bond auctions are the FED, accounting for 80% of the buying. This is pure debt monetization, creating money out of thin air. They have no other options but to buy, otherwise the bond market will go into free fall and interest rates would skyrocket at a time the economy is contracting. In turn it would create panic in the USD and you would have a run on the currency which would be a global financial disaster.
The time for raising taxes has passed. It’s too late to try and bring the elephant in on a string. Amerikans are broke, homeless, jobless and underemployed. Unfunded liabilities add another 100 trillion in liabilities at a time the majority of the population is approaching retirement. Their major asset, the home, has become a liability or has been foreclosed. Encouraged to turn it into an ATM with enticing ZIRP all provided by the GOV. The gutted industrial landscape of Amerika will take over 20 years to recover. The Chinese are already buying up hundreds of thousands of acres and creating free trade zones. Utah has been criticized for allowing this and Chinese building factories in their state.
Trillions of dollars in worthless derivatives, cratering housing market, 23% unemployment, millions underemployed, military spending and homeless ensure QE will continue to infinity. The Global banking system is a house of cards and all the banksters are tied to other entities through derivatives and if one goes down there is a cascading effect. Too big to fail. Asia and Europe are responding to the uncertainties in the fiat monetary system and what financial reforms will do to their wealth. They dispose of the paper that Govs. control the value of. They will wait for the dust to settle while using a time tested alternative currency.
 
The key words that tell me immediately the poster likely got his info from the 'money conspiracy websites' and YouTube is PONZI SCHEME. The forums I surf, which generally have an open forum area for off topics, always have at least one guy who loves to use those two words. It's like word for word the same sentences they write about their 'theories' about the financial market collapses.
Brian P, Duster and CBR - keep up the good work here.

In your world, the collapse in 2008 never happened, trillions were never stolen, inflation is non-existence, etc. Congrats, I wish I can be on the same drugs as you.
If 2008 didn't wake you up, then all I can say is I feel sorry for you. You probably like bankers/government screwing you over and over again up the ***. Your arguments say nothing other then backing up the bankers and the fraudulent system. 2008 is the beginning of the deflationary spiral we are in. Thus you see so much money printing and gigantic deficit spending. None of which are working other then creating more debt and inflation. No I am not an expert in economics, but I smell the crap that is going to hit the fan. You don’t need to be an expert to see that. The “REAL” experts like yourself see nothing wrong. Everything is rosy.
Ben Bernanke the ultimate expert in economics think central banks buy GOLD because of tradition.
Keep listening to TIMES MAN of the YEAR.

For the few here who are awake, you probably already follow Peter Schiff and Max Keiser.
Here is the latest Keiser Report.

Keiser Report: Banking Looters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUyutryL_SY

Latest report from Peter Schiff:

New York Times Breaking News: Superhero Paul Krugman Saves World from Imaginary Alien Invasion!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyW-o-Pr92M


Here are some sheeple : US national debt-A Simple Question

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZiXHcCDZ-U
 
Last edited:
In your world, the collapse in 2008 never happened, trillions were never stolen, inflation is non-existence, etc. Congrats, I wish I can be on the same drugs as you.
If 2008 didn't wake you up, then all I can say is I feel sorry for you. You probably like bankers/government screwing you over and over again up the ***. Your arguments say nothing other then backing up the bankers and the fraudulent system. 2008 is the beginning of the deflationary spiral we are in. Thus you see so much money printing and gigantic deficit spending. None of which are working other then creating more debt and inflation. No I am not an expert in economics, but I smell the crap that is going to hit the fan. You don’t need to be an expert to see that. The “REAL” experts like yourself see nothing wrong. Everything is rosy.
Ben Bernanke the ultimate expert in economics think central banks buy GOLD because of tradition.
Keep listening to TIMES MAN of the YEAR.

For the few here who are awake, you probably already follow Peter Schiff and Max Keiser.
Here is the latest Keiser Report.

Keiser Report: Banking Looters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUyutryL_SY

Latest report from Peter Schiff:

New York Times Breaking News: Superhero Paul Krugman Saves World from Imaginary Alien Invasion!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyW-o-Pr92M


Here are some sheeple : US national debt-A Simple Question

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZiXHcCDZ-U


There are some crazy folks out there that called 2008 a recession.
But these are the people who were able to pass intro to macroeconomics.
 
The hole that has been dug is huge and it is unlikely it will ever be filled. The best option is to stop digging. Some countries cannot, but the US could actually stop digging if they chose. Raise taxes for the top tax tier(s), add a VAT, massive scale back on spending. Most shocking, LOWER corporate tax while at the same time get rid of some of the corporate tax deductions.

Problem is, the party that does this will be finished as a political party. The next elected party will do nothing and reap the benefits 10 years out.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/o...the-super-rich.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share

"Americans are rapidly losing faith in the ability of Congress to deal with our country’s fiscal problems. Only action that is immediate, real and very substantial will prevent that doubt from morphing into hopelessness. That feeling can create its own reality.


Job one for the 12 is to pare down some future promises that even a rich America can’t fulfill. Big money must be saved here. The 12 should then turn to the issue of revenues. I would leave rates for 99.7 percent of taxpayers unchanged and continue the current 2-percentage-point reduction in the employee contribution to the payroll tax. This cut helps the poor and the middle class, who need every break they can get.


But for those making more than $1 million — there were 236,883 such households in 2009 — I would raise rates immediately on taxable income in excess of $1 million, including, of course, dividends and capital gains. And for those who make $10 million or more — there were 8,274 in 2009 — I would suggest an additional increase in rate.


My friends and I have been coddled long enough by a billionaire-friendly Congress. It’s time for our government to get serious about shared sacrifice."


 
The decision by the Fed, last week, to keep a key interest rate at near zero percent for 2 years is historic because the Fed has never done this before. This action will have profound negative effect on the U.S. dollar and its buying power. It also signals that even the Fed thinks the economy is not going to get better for at least 2 years. This action will affect every American and telegraphs a policy of inflation by the government.

More:
 
I think ScubaSteve's point about the value of gold when currencies collapse is a valid one. The price of gold today is driven and maintained largely by greed and speculation. In a free market, the value of anything is dictated by what the market will bare and supply and demand. Don't expect gold to buy the same big basket of goods post collapse that it will today. IMO, given the present state of Canadian and US currencies, if you paid more than CDN$600 an ounce for gold, you paid too much and it will lose the value in excess of CDN$600 or more in a post currency collapse when most people are starving. IMO, silver may give you better value for your money and guns, ammunition and access to food and drinking water will give the most value. Gold will have little value in a barter economy until production, distribution and a merchant economy are re-established.
 
How do you suppose your holdings in gold will save you from a state of anarchy?

Your not on the same page.

Discussion is not regarding weapons of physical harm and protecting yourself physically with coins paper or gold. The discussion is about weapons of mass financial destruction, better known as OTC derivatives and the black hole they've created. Those that wish to preserve their wealth need an alternative currency that can't be devalued by Gov. deflation or inflation.

If you have no money, you have no worries, your debt will be wiped out by inflation. Unemployment will increase as the big consumer nation south of us rolls over. Remember that their economy is based 70% on consumption. There will be a decline of the global economy because they're all in over their head and the exports they got paid for in USD are going down in purchasing power. Those countries holding US debt will also get a haircut by imported inflation. They can't bail because they would creat a panic on the Forex, but the little fries should get out of paper ASAP. The writing is on the wall. There's an elephant in the room.

It's your decision what you risk. The more information you read the better your decision. I have nothing to sell you and will lose nothing because of your inaction.

"ThoseWho Risk Nothing, Do, Achieve, & Become Nothing”

QE to infinity!

Article:
"[SIZE=+1]While the world is led to believe that gold is a barbaric relic of the past, a huge confidence game is being played out in fiat currency markets, illustrated by the events in Asia. In order to maintain confidence in inherently unsustainable fiat currencies and unsustainable debt, confidence in gold must be depressed, given that it is the only alternative store of value.The increasing volume of gold transacted through LBMA reflects the crescendo this confidence game has reached. These large volumes also suggest that gold is trading as currency and not as a barbaric commodity, as the press is apt to suggest. Could it be that the LBMA is being used as a testing ground for the establishment of a new gold-backed world currency system? If so, the Rothschilds are in a position of enormous influence over such a genesis process." More:
[/SIZE]
 
In your world, the collapse in 2008 never happened, trillions were never stolen, inflation is non-existence, etc. Congrats, I wish I can be on the same drugs as you.
If 2008 didn't wake you up, then all I can say is I feel sorry for you. You probably like bankers/government screwing you over and over again up the ***. Your arguments say nothing other then backing up the bankers and the fraudulent system. 2008 is the beginning of the deflationary spiral we are in. Thus you see so much money printing and gigantic deficit spending. None of which are working other then creating more debt and inflation. No I am not an expert in economics, but I smell the crap that is going to hit the fan. You don’t need to be an expert to see that. The “REAL” experts like yourself see nothing wrong. Everything is rosy.

So, since 2008, have we been in an inflationary period, or a deflationary period? Are we experiencing hyperinflation, or are we in a deflationary spiral? Unfortunately, you can't have both.

You seem to be sure that something really awful is happening, but you can't tell if it's a drought or a flood. And yet you claim that you're the one that's awake while everyone else is asleep.

--- D
 
Don't expect gold to buy the same big basket of goods post collapse that it will today. IMO, given the present state of Canadian and US currencies, if you paid more than CDN$600 an ounce for gold, you paid too much and it will lose the value in excess of CDN$600 or more in a post currency collapse when most people are starving. IMO, silver may give you better value for your money and guns, ammunition and access to food and drinking water will give the most value. Gold will have little value in a barter economy until production, distribution and a merchant economy are re-established.

Just a couple of quick questions:

1) Your analogy of "not to expect gold to buy the same amount of goods post currency collapse." How did you arrive at that conclusion?

2) If you paid more than 600 for an oz you paid too much. What are you basing that price to? If gold was 850 in 1980 what is the inflation adjusted value in todays dollars?

3) Banks don't store silver as a currency and silver is an industrial metal. If industry is slowing so will the demand for silver. What facts do you base your consensus that silver is a better value?

4) When faith in the currency evaporated, latest occurance Zimbabwe Dollar was not accepted by merchants. People were panning for gold and using the USD to purchase goods. What will cause the disruption in the current structure for distribution when the USD collapses?

5) If you fire your gun into a mob, how many will you be able to kill before they get to you and your family? You own a belt drive machine gun and armoured vehicle to depart in?

I think those that talk guns and amo are watching too much Chuck Norris and Rambo movies. Murder will still apply. Laws will still apply. You won't get amnesty if you're still alive.
 
I think those that talk guns and amo are watching too much Chuck Norris and Rambo movies. Murder will still apply. Laws will still apply. You won't get amnesty if you're still alive.

You're confusing the hell out of me. All your posts are doom & gloom, the world is coming to an end - I thought we were talking about a true SHTF scenario, so your end game is more of a 'wet fart gently touched by a lakeside breeze'? The world comes to an end, but you'll have the police to escort you and your bullion as you cut off a whisker for a loaf of bread, and buy block after block of foreclosed properties?
 
[video=youtube;GhxqIITtTtU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhxqIITtTtU[/video]

Reminds me of the mentality of self protection.
 
You're confusing the hell out of me. All your posts are doom & gloom, the world is coming to an end - I thought we were talking about a true SHTF scenario, so your end game is more of a 'wet fart gently touched by a lakeside breeze'? The world comes to an end, but you'll have the police to escort you and your bullion as you cut off a whisker for a loaf of bread, and buy block after block of foreclosed properties?

Perhaps re-reading my post # 91 will resolve your confusion. It's the first line, so you won't require re-reading the entire post.

QE to infinity.
 
Im guessing you have no formal economics education.

Bernanke does have a degree and he's never been right. In fact I think most of these knucklehead economists have been wrong since 1999. Martin Armstrong has it right. I've read every paper he's written.
 
Just a couple of quick questions:

1) Your analogy of "not to expect gold to buy the same amount of goods post currency collapse." How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Hard comparison to make. You can't buy any goods with gold today, so it's irrelevant to say whether or not you'll be able to buy more or less with it tomorrow.

2) If you paid more than 600 for an oz you paid too much. What are you basing that price to? If gold was 850 in 1980 what is the inflation adjusted value in todays dollars?

If you're right, then gold is worth exactly the same today as it ever was - it's just the currency that's been devalued. What do you care what gold is worth in terms of a currency that you claim is worthless?

3) Banks don't store silver as a currency and silver is an industrial metal. If industry is slowing so will the demand for silver. What facts do you base your consensus that silver is a better value?

Banks don't store any metals as currency. Because metals are not currency. Your insistence that gold is currency demonstrates that you are confused by what the word means. And gold is also an industrial metal. There is a very significant industrial market for it, and the price of it is influenced by that industrial demand, among other things.

4) When faith in the currency evaporated, latest occurance Zimbabwe Dollar was not accepted by merchants. People were panning for gold and using the USD to purchase goods. What will cause the disruption in the current structure for distribution when the USD collapses?

People were panning for gold, but using the USD to purchase goods. Now you're beginning to understand the difference between gold and currency.

5) If you fire your gun into a mob, how many will you be able to kill before they get to you and your family? You own a belt drive machine gun and armoured vehicle to depart in?

I think those that talk guns and amo are watching too much Chuck Norris and Rambo movies. Murder will still apply. Laws will still apply. You won't get amnesty if you're still alive.

I agree that the gun thing is pretty preposterous, but it's only slightly less ridiculous than the idea of someone trying to defend themselves by throwing chunks of gold. And it's a heck of a lot less ridiculous than the idea that the economy and the currency will collapse, and yet the laws and court system will continue to function as normal.
 
Bernanke does have a degree and he's never been right. In fact I think most of these knucklehead economists have been wrong since 1999. Martin Armstrong has it right. I've read every paper he's written.

Ah, those knucklehead economists. Why do people have such high regard for certain professions and education, and yet so little regard for others? Doctors and scientists can be wrong, but we respect them for making new discoveries that expose how little we once knew. And yet, when economists study the world, and have theories that prove to be incorrect, we malign them as knuckleheads. We think that by doing a bit of internet reading, we can become experts in the field. You can read every paper Martin Armstrong has ever written, and suddenly you're the best economist in the world. If you read a bunch of papers, is that going to make you the best doctor in the world? If you read a bunch of papers, are you going to be the best motorcycle engineer in the world?

The internet has turned everyone into armchair experts, most of whom don't have a clue what they're talking about. Where did all this arrogance come from? When I have a difference of opinion with someone who is deeply educated and experienced in the subject matter, I'm not so quick to dismiss them as incompetent idiots.
 

Back
Top Bottom