Speed limits: Is faster safer?

A lot of people seem to be missing the point. We have been driving at 120kph on the 400 series highways for so long that the conclusion is that we will drive at 20 over the speed limit no matter what. What the 85th percentile is doing is driving at the natural speed the hwy was designed for. Ideally the speed limit would be 120 and most drivers would drive at or around that speed. There will always be crazies that drive well over the limit and they should be targetted and leave drivers going around 120 alone not punishing them with huge fines e.g. $111.25 for 123 in a 100 zone when in reality with a reasonable limit of 120 a cop wouldn't even look twice at you. This would definitely hurt the coffers though so it is not likely to happen.
 
Tripletrouble said:
A lot of people seem to be missing the point. We have been driving at 120kph on the 400 series highways for so long that the conclusion is that we will drive at 20 over the speed limit no matter what. What the 85th percentile is doing is driving at the natural speed the hwy was designed for. Ideally the speed limit would be 120 and most drivers would drive at or around that speed. There will always be crazies that drive well over the limit and they should be targetted and leave drivers going around 120 alone not punishing them with huge fines e.g. $111.25 for 123 in a 100 zone when in reality with a reasonable limit of 120 a cop wouldn't even look twice at you. This would definitely hurt the coffers though so it is not likely to happen.
Click to expand...

And what exactly is the natural speed of a highway again?

You cannot dismiss the effect of the chances of getting a ticket in people's choice of driving speed, and that in turn affects the 85th percentile speed. Different drivers have different risk tolerances, for risking a crash, for risking a speeding ticket, for risking an HTA172 tow-away and suspension.

Right now, there is a belief among many here that doing 15 to 20 over is "safe" as far as chances of getting a ticket is concerned, and that is where they set their speeds. They would bump it up another 20km immediately if given the chance to do so with no repercussions. There are also many here who have admitted keeping their speeds down to avoid the 50km-over bonus prize, and they too would most likely immediately take advantage of a 49 kmph "window" in the higher range that would follow a speed limit increas.

If the speed limit ratchets up without a corresponding tightening of speed tolerance, the general observed effect in most places has been a ratcheting up of speeds over time, and that would result in a yet-higher-again 85th percentile speed. It's pretty safe to assume that there will be no lasting increase (if any at all) enforcement of speed limits than the minimal that already exists now in Ontario. Based on other locales, we would see 401 speeds creep up another 10kmph or more, and with it, fatalities.
 
griff2 said:
Right now, there is a belief among many here that doing 15 to 20 over is "safe" as far as chances of getting a ticket is concerned, and that is where they set their speeds.
Click to expand...
I do not feel Ticket safe when I do 15 or 20 over on Eglinton avenue, I actually don't even feel safe at that speed because the traffic conditions, and the proximity to other cars travelling close to the 60 speed limit on that road for example. You are confusing people driving at the speed they feel comfortable and safe at with been afraid of law enforcement.
 
griff2 said:
And what exactly is the natural speed of a highway again?

You cannot dismiss the effect of the chances of getting a ticket in people's choice of driving speed, and that in turn affects the 85th percentile speed. Different drivers have different risk tolerances, for risking a crash, for risking a speeding ticket, for risking an HTA172 tow-away and suspension.

Right now, there is a belief among many here that doing 15 to 20 over is "safe" as far as chances of getting a ticket is concerned, and that is where they set their speeds. They would bump it up another 20km immediately if given the chance to do so with no repercussions. There are also many here who have admitted keeping their speeds down to avoid the 50km-over bonus prize, and they too would most likely immediately take advantage of a 49 kmph "window" in the higher range that would follow a speed limit increas.

If the speed limit ratchets up without a corresponding tightening of speed tolerance, the general observed effect in most places has been a ratcheting up of speeds over time, and that would result in a yet-higher-again 85th percentile speed. It's pretty safe to assume that there will be no lasting increase (if any at all) enforcement of speed limits than the minimal that already exists now in Ontario. Based on other locales, we would see 401 speeds creep up another 10kmph or more, and with it, fatalities.
Click to expand...

The presumption being increased speed limits would occur while law enforcement remains the same.

However, there are studies to show raising speed limits didn't affect the 85th percentile speed of traffic.

It's not simply seeing a sign and assuming you drive 20 km/h over.

I'm sure there would be some but, everyone?

The issue with enforcement is, it's not done for safety. It's revenue. So, there is no willingness to change.

How novel an idea to have proper speed limits and enforce them.

Try and go 20 over in Nova Scotia and see how long it happens before collecting tickets.

The flow of traffic is generally the same as here in Ontario. 118-120 km/h on posted 110 areas. Set the cruise at 125 and you will get pinched.

The current system in place in Ontario has the 85th percentile breaking the law. And then some more if we include the others outside the 85th percentile.

Does that make sense?

LEO and the public have all become conditioned to it.

Wouldn't it make sense to have actual speed limits that make sense and enforce the law?

The police are happy with the current model because it suits their revenue requirement. Nothing to do with safety. As it shows the roads are safer now than ever.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
griff2 said:
And what exactly is the natural speed of a highway again?

You cannot dismiss the effect of the chances of getting a ticket in people's choice of driving speed, and that in turn affects the 85th percentile speed. Different drivers have different risk tolerances, for risking a crash, for risking a speeding ticket, for risking an HTA172 tow-away and suspension.

Right now, there is a belief among many here that doing 15 to 20 over is "safe" as far as chances of getting a ticket is concerned, and that is where they set their speeds. They would bump it up another 20km immediately if given the chance to do so with no repercussions. There are also many here who have admitted keeping their speeds down to avoid the 50km-over bonus prize, and they too would most likely immediately take advantage of a 49 kmph "window" in the higher range that would follow a speed limit increas.

If the speed limit ratchets up without a corresponding tightening of speed tolerance, the general observed effect in most places has been a ratcheting up of speeds over time, and that would result in a yet-higher-again 85th percentile speed. It's pretty safe to assume that there will be no lasting increase (if any at all) enforcement of speed limits than the minimal that already exists now in Ontario. Based on other locales, we would see 401 speeds creep up another 10kmph or more, and with it, fatalities.
Click to expand...
Then yuou would be one of the people missing the point. Perhaps this will answer some of your questions?
http://www.civ.utoronto.ca/sect/traeng/its/downloads/gta-speed-limits-study.pdf
 
Tripletrouble said:
Then yuou would be one of the people missing the point. Perhaps this will answer some of your questions?
http://www.civ.utoronto.ca/sect/traeng/its/downloads/gta-speed-limits-study.pdf
Click to expand...

That's an old grad school thesis and it does next to nothing to address what I said.

Try something more current. http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_...ehaviour/08-speed_and_speed_management_en.pdf

"Until not so long ago, a common approach to determine the most appropriate speed limit fora particular road or road section was to set the limit close to the V85. The V85-speed is the speed that is not exceeded by 85% of the vehicles.

However, it is increasingly understood that the speed limit should not be based on driver speed choice but on analysis of the road and traffic functions and characteristics as well as the biomechanical limits of road users to make sure that the limit represents a safe speed. In Sweden, for example, a new road classification has been introduced recently with the aim of better matching the road function,speed limit and inherent protective design.

Here, the setting of speed limits is determined by the inherent protective quality of the road sections and vehicles concerned, rather than the speed behaviour of road vehicle users."
 
griff2 said:
That's an old grad school thesis and it does next to nothing to address what I said.

Try something more current. http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_...ehaviour/08-speed_and_speed_management_en.pdf

"Until not so long ago, a common approach to determine the most appropriate speed limit fora particular road or road section was to set the limit close to the V85. The V85-speed is the speed that is not exceeded by 85% of the vehicles.

However, it is increasingly understood that the speed limit should not be based on driver speed choice but on analysis of the road and traffic functions and characteristics as well as the biomechanical limits of road users to make sure that the limit represents a safe speed. In Sweden, for example, a new road classification has been introduced recently with the aim of better matching the road function,speed limit and inherent protective design.

Here, the setting of speed limits is determined by the inherent protective quality of the road sections and vehicles concerned, rather than the speed behaviour of road vehicle users."
Click to expand...
...And which of these methods were used to determine that the biggest HWY in North America with some points having as many as 6 to 8 lanes each way is only safe with a Max speed of 100km/hr?

Do you even know the reason why the current 100km/HR speed limit was implemented?

Interesting read and on topic
http://www.caa.ca/speed-limits/
 
Last edited:
Well many are arguing about the speed limit and enforcement on 401 inside the GTA. While there is "some" enforcement inside the GTA there is actually NO enforcement in the area patrolled by the Downsview detachment, on the 401. My ex was a Cst with that detachment, and at the time, they had strict orders not to set up radar or do speed enforcement, due to "safety considerations"

The shoulders are simply too narrow across this section and therefore officer safety was at risk while stopping vehicles. They can tag you on moving radar and follow until an area where it is safe for a traffic stop. You will almost also always see cruisers in the collectors as opposed to the express, (unless they aredispatched). This is so that in the event of an emergency call they can get off at the next exit if required.
 
Is faster safer? Apparently not in Kansas.
Three years after the state raised the speed limit 5 mph to 75 on certain highways, fatalities and injuries are rocketing, according to new numbers compiled by the state Transportation Department.
The overall number of crashes is flat, but highway deaths jumped 54 percent since 2012 on the seven highways where the speed limit was raised.
Those highways, covering 804 miles, include I-135 north out of Wichita, rural stretches of I-35, I-70, U.S. 69 and I-470 near Topeka.
Overall, 48 people were killed in 38 wrecks on those seven highways in the two years before the speed limit was raised in mid-2011. In the two years after the speed limit was raised, 74 people were killed in 59 wrecks.
Injury accidents are up, too, increasing by 13 percent in the past two years compared with the two years before the speed limit went to 75.
Heavily traveled I-35 was one of the highways with the biggest increases in fatalities. Fatal wrecks doubled to 18 on I-35 in the two years after the speed limit increased compared with the two years before it was raised.
State highway officials aren’t ready to pin the blame for rising highway deaths on the higher speed limit, but national traffic safety experts think it follows a pattern seen in studies elsewhere.
​

Same number of crashes, but fatalities up 54% is simple physics at play.

Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/news/state/article4970385.html#storylink=cpy
 
griff2 said:
Is faster safer? Apparently not in Kansas.
Three years after the state raised the speed limit 5 mph to 75 on certain highways, fatalities and injuries are rocketing, according to new numbers compiled by the state Transportation Department.
The overall number of crashes is flat, but highway deaths jumped 54 percent since 2012 on the seven highways where the speed limit was raised.
Those highways, covering 804 miles, include I-135 north out of Wichita, rural stretches of I-35, I-70, U.S. 69 and I-470 near Topeka.
Overall, 48 people were killed in 38 wrecks on those seven highways in the two years before the speed limit was raised in mid-2011. In the two years after the speed limit was raised, 74 people were killed in 59 wrecks.
Injury accidents are up, too, increasing by 13 percent in the past two years compared with the two years before the speed limit went to 75.
Heavily traveled I-35 was one of the highways with the biggest increases in fatalities. Fatal wrecks doubled to 18 on I-35 in the two years after the speed limit increased compared with the two years before it was raised.
State highway officials aren’t ready to pin the blame for rising highway deaths on the higher speed limit, but national traffic safety experts think it follows a pattern seen in studies elsewhere.
​

Same number of crashes, but fatalities up 54% is simple physics at play.

Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/news/state/article4970385.html#storylink=cpy
Click to expand...

Correlation != causation.

These days I'd be more apt to blame increasing accident rates on vastly increasing driver distraction (e.g. texting while driving) than a 5mph increase the in the speed limit.
 
Come on man, he spent the whole day looking for some link that could slightly sound like it could help his argument, do not squash his dream.
Blackfin said:
Correlation != causation.

These days I'd be more apt to blame increasing accident rates on vastly increasing driver distraction (e.g. texting while driving) than a 5mph increase the in the speed limit.
Click to expand...
 
Blackfin said:
Correlation != causation.

These days I'd be more apt to blame increasing accident rates on vastly increasing driver distraction (e.g. texting while driving) than a 5mph increase the in the speed limit.
Click to expand...

Driver distraction increased so drastically in such a short period to have such effects?
 
I would think so many people didn't have smart phones in 2012 most do now.

Sent from a device using a program
 
I don't think it makes sense to raise speed limits EVERYWHERE.

In rural areas with driveways and cross roads and overtaking vehicles use oncoming lanes can be a formula for increase injury and death.

In the Kanas report, one factor not mention was weather. Low visibility conditions such as rain or fog could be factors.

In any event, there are other places with higher speed limits within Canada and it doesn't appear they world is coming to end.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
iFly55 said:
24 hours, 37,000 speeders: 1 day on Canada's busiest highway

By Lindsay Sample and Megan Griffith-Greene / Marketplace, CBC News
Posted: Oct 29, 2015 11:00 AM ET
Last Updated: Oct 29, 2015 11:36 AM ET

http://www.cbc.ca/1.3292975
Click to expand...

Sounds almost like civil disobedience to me, a non-violent protest against unfair (-ly low) speed limits.
 
Blackfin said:
Sounds almost like civil disobedience to me, a non-violent protest against unfair (-ly low) speed limits.
Click to expand...

Our limited-access highway speed limits are almost identical to those on the New York State thruways, except that New York's equivalent of the stretch in their story would be posted as 55 mph (90 kmph) for Thruway sections in urban areas. Their compliance rates are much better. The difference is in the level of enforcement and the severity of penalties for lower-level speeding.
 
Increased enforcement and more punitive actions by the state re "bad" laws that 80% of people do not agree with is not what we should be aiming for.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom